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Joined: Jan 2014
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Rhys95 Offline OP
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Hi all,
just picked up my new James Rosier hammer gun the other day and I've noticed some interesting aspects of the guns that I was hoping to get some information on.

The gun was actually retailed by James Watson Rosier who was based here in Melbourne, Australia but was most likely made by W.W.Greener. The serial number for the gun is 38,440 which is engraved on both barrels but the number 16,190 is stamped on the bottom rib including "W W G" on both barrels which I am assuming would be W.W.Greener and their manufacture number?
The damascus pattern I found very unusual compared to everything else I have seen, the pattern actually changes three times on the right barrel which you can see in the pictures.

I have bought this one for a duck and black powder shooter because of the thick barrels and it also falling within my "20 year old university student budget". If anyone has any information on whether or not it was made by Greener, the age and the type of damascus pattern it would be much appreciated!

Cheers,
Rhys









"MADE FOR JAMES W ROSIER MELBOURNE"







This shows the pattern change every 3rd of the barrel





Here's a comparison between my J & W Tolley

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Not a bad student gun smile
I am no WW Greener expert but own a couple and IMHO this is a circa 1895 WW Greener.

With kind regards,
Jani

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Sweet gun, the damascus is rather striking, no idea's offered as to why other than the barrel maker was told to make something out of off cuts but that's probably not the reason. Some of the external pitting is a bit unsightly but the overall look of the gun is pretty nice!

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Those hammers are quite distinctive, and have a very "Greener" look about them.

There's some unusual patterns there, and it's unusual to see such contrast between the segments of the tubes. I have a W&C Scott single 10 with a similar thing - very clear circumferential line where the tube proper was butt welded to the breech section, and a clear lap weld in the breech section - all plain twist though in mine.

There's someone within the Guild who is or was collecting and researching James Rosier's life and work; Ben Thomas is his name, I think. It'd also be worth having Pete Smith, president, at Vintagers have a look at it; the next shoot is on at Greenvale, near Kilmore, on Sat 30th of this month.

I do love our original muzzle loader/damascus barrel regs; not that there's much to shoot at this season.

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This is not uncommon. Each tube was made from three different sections, of differing thicknesses as the technology for machining a tapered tube didn't exist. The sections were usually jump-welded together, but obviously other similar welding techniques were used, beyond my knowledge. The patterns are very nice, it's kind of a bonus nowadays, showing different patterns on the same gun to highlight the tube maker's art.

It may be the lighting or the deterioration of the lacquer, but it looks like it is a "Black & White" gun to me, which I think would be atypical for Australia. Looking at the barrel flat picture, it looks to me that it might have been recolored at some point.

Regards
Ken

Last edited by Ken61; 05/10/15 07:47 AM.

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Rhys95 Offline OP
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Thanks for the feed back Jani and Demonwolf. I was thinking its may have been made somewhere around that time or possibly even earlier than 1895.

The external pitting and that replacement pine insert on the forend are a bit unsightly but it probably contributed to the lower price.

I will almost certainly be at the next Vintagers meet Cadet and I'll get Peter Smith to give it a look over. I should probably source some reloading data for some black powder reloads while I'm there

The lighting on those pictures does distort the colour Ken, its shown slightly better in the last image.
I'm assuming that this method of welding these different tubes together was a cost and time cutting method of lower grade guns?

Cheers

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As Ken explained

Sporting Guns and Gunpowders: Comprising a Selection from Reports of Experiments, and Other Articles Published in The "Field" Newspaper, Relative to Fire Arms and Explosives, Fredrick Toms, 1897
From The Field Jan. 15, 1896 Vol 91, p. 91
http://books.google.com/books?id=inQCAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA335&lpg

A. - Damascus metal is a mechanical mixture of steel and iron.
B. - This mixture is affected in the following way: A number of small thin sheets of iron and steel (alternees), being placed alternately (faggotted or piled), are firmly wired or boxed together (forming the lopin or billet), heated in a furnace, and welded into a solid mass.
C. – The mass is then rolled out into long thin square bars or rods.
D. – The rods are then cut up into convenient pieces.
E. – Each piece is then heated and placed in a machine, in which one end of the piece is fixed, and the piece is rotated from the other end – the result being that the piece is twisted or corkscrewed very finely.
F. – The rods are rolled of various thicknesses, according to the number of rods in the particular barrels to be made. The finer the barrels are required, the smaller is the diameter of the rods, and the greater the number of rods required for a barrel.
G. – Two, three, four, or six rods are then taken, and are heated and welded together at the sides. Thus is made a flat strip, a little more than two, three, four, or six times wider than a single rod.
H. – Damascus barrels are made usually in two (OR THREE) parts, fore part and back part, the back part being made of thicker metal than the fore part.
I. – This is done to avoid having to roll the strip taper from end to end, and to enable the welder to “jump” the barrel more powerfully than he would be able to “jump” a full length barrel.
J. – The strip is heated and rolled into a ribbon (ribband).
K. – This ribbon is cut into convenient lengths, one length sufficient for a fore part or back part, as the case may be.
L. – The ribbon is then (either with or without being heated) twisted round a round rod (mandrel) in a machine, and thus formed into a spiral tube.
M. – The spiral tube is then heated and welded by “jumping” the edges of the spiral together and hammering round the sides. This process is generally effected thus: an iron rod is inserted into one end of the spiral, and spiral placed in furnace, and when heated sufficiently, the welder withdraws the spiral from the furnace by means of the rod, and places it horizontally under a specially-made trip hammers, and “jumps” it hard vertically on an iron block let into the hearth floor, in order to force the edges of the spiral together. The hammering and “jumping” are repeated alternately as many times as required. The spiral is thus made into a rough tube. The tilt-hammer is not always employed; hand-made barrels being made by a welder and one or two strikers using welding hand-hammers.
N. – The two (or three) tubes, fore part and back part, are then heated at their joining ends and welded into one, and they then form a finished rough tube.


Aesthetically, the barrels are a bit of a mess with poorly matched tube segments, but that has nothing to do with functionality and you should be proud of your acquisition.

All 6 tube segments appear to be 3 Iron "Oxford" variants; the breech "Horseshoe". The butt weld lines are apparent here



This is a Parker with 3 Iron "Horseshoe" with mismatched segments



More examples here
http://www.picturetrail.com/sfx/album/view/18015717

Part of the pattern difference is in the amount of barrel material removed with grinding to the desired thickness.

I would very much like to own your barrels as an example of SIX English Damascus patterns! smile
See
http://www.picturetrail.com/sfx/album/view/18059733

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What was the period of operetion of the JW Rosier's firm?

With kind regards,
Jani

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Originally Posted By: Rhys95

The lighting on those pictures does distort the colour Ken, its shown slightly better in the last image.
I'm assuming that this method of welding these different tubes together was a cost and time cutting method of lower grade guns?

Cheers


No, just merely the technology of the Time. The same techniques/methods were used on all pattern-welded barrels. I'll go out on a limb here and say that on higher grade guns a greater effort was made to more closely match the patterns, but that may be an incorrect assumption. There's no real difference in strength between any of the types of patterns. (or pattern-welded types) Greener may have gotten a deal on tubes with mis-matched segments, and decided to use them on an export gun. It's very possible the importer saved a few shillings....

I'll echo the sentiment of what DocDrew said, it's wonderful you have a gun with so many different patterns. It's extremely "Cool" to us pattern-welded devotees...

Last edited by Ken61; 05/10/15 10:44 AM.

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The pine insert is a bit odd, i can top it though, i just recently did a hammer gun which had wood filler made from sawdust and glue to make up the horn.

A couple of hours with buffalo horn and a file will fix it up.




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