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Mar 29th, 2024
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 142
Member
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Member
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 142 |
I am seeing an R with a Crown above it on both barrels.
According to Steindler's translation of Wirnsberger, page 38: "Article Four covers alterations of an already proofed firearm. These changes [alterations] can occur in either barrel, such as rechambering for an improved cartridge, or a change in the action or magazine so that the gun will handle a cartridge of a caliber different from that for which the gun was proofed. In such cases, the gun must undergo proof again, even if the barrel[s] has [have] not undergone any changes and has [have] retained its [their] original caliber [gauge]. The mark for such re-proof is Crown/R."
The gun's having been proved for Nitro powder could account for the surplus proofmarks.
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Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 4,598
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 4,598 |
The crown R and crown W could certainly be German proof marks, as the 12 in a circle is German. That would explain the eagle(s) you are seeing.
So it would seem this gun is one of those rare birds that has proof marks from 2 countries. Too bad we will never know the full history.
I think you now own a very fine gun!
Pete
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 11,377 Likes: 105
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 11,377 Likes: 105 |
Yes, definitely proofmarks from both Belgium and Germany. And I get the wording as "non pour balle" (clearer on the R side of the photo than the left). Makes more sense (although that mark, according to Kennett, dates from 1878-97), because if "raye" is used, it would be "non raye", not "non pour raye".
Very interesting gun.
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Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 12,743
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 12,743 |
I had just been looking thru Wirnsberger & came bact to post, but Larry had beat me to it. I think he has nailed this mark. To add a little more begining in 1897 the word "Choke" was used rather than the "Non Pour Balle". A gun having rifled choke was marked "CH B RAYE". Non Pour Raye does not seem to be a viable mark.
Also according to Wirnsberger the first smokeless proofs in Belgium were carried out in 1891 with the proofmaster having the option of using EC or Schultz powders & the bbl would be so marked with the rampant lion over either EC or SCH. Later the lion over PV replaced these marks, but haven't found the date yet.
This would seem to indicate the original Belgian proof between 1891-1897.
Miller/TN
I Didn't Say Everything I Said, Yogi Berra
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 3,642 Likes: 1
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 3,642 Likes: 1 |
Guys, what it actually says is "NON POUR BALLE".
JC(AL)
"...it is always advisable to perceive clearly our ignorance."ť Charles Darwin
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 3,642 Likes: 1
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 3,642 Likes: 1 |
More details:   JC(AL)
"...it is always advisable to perceive clearly our ignorance."ť Charles Darwin
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 3,774 Likes: 1
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 3,774 Likes: 1 |
Gun definetly been made in Belgium and for Emil Kerner, but R under the crown means this gun been fixed or made over in Germany and re-proofed. By eagle shape it happened before 1912.
Geno.
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