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Apr 29th, 2024
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Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 497 Likes: 3
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 497 Likes: 3 |
Well Kyrie . . . I guess our definition of "very nice" is different . . . or else perhaps you didn't look at the descriptions of that treasure trove of Gunbroker guns you tout so highly.
Here's what my search on Gunbroker turns up, for used Spanish sxs:
I find a total of 8 guns between $4-600. (I actually broadened the criteria a bit: From $350-700.) 2 of them are 10 gauges. (If you want a cheap 10ga sxs, Spanish is an OK way to go.) There's a 26" 12ga for $425 . . . sounds good until you spot that 12 1/2" LOP. Thought I had a real winner with a Stoeger Zephyr for $ 700 . . . until I saw the 24 1/2" barrels. Then there's a decent looking Uggie for $700 . . . but it has a very visible crack (repaired, it says--looks like with Elmer's glue!) in the toe of the stock. And a "light" ZH 12ga, at only $475 . . . although "light" is defined as 7 pounds. And another Zephyr 12ga for $535 . . . with rust on the water table. And it looks as if several of these Spanish sweethearts are stocked with top grade Iberian beech. Sorry . . . not a winner in the bunch. If I want a gun for that kind of money, I'm going to look around for an Ithaca SKB 100 12ga somewhere around the top end of your price range. (Which, by the way, is pretty much a Japanese copy of a W&S 700.)
But hey Kyrie . . . thanks for the trip through the Spanish junkyard. There's an old saying that goes "The devil is in the details." Looks to me like you missed a whole flock of devils in your gunbroker search. Funny the way you didnt provide any links or auction numbers so people could verify your descriptions. Nice try :-) Lets do that again, but with links so people can see the guns. http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=480954602Zabala Hermanos, 12 gauge, ejectors, SST, factory cut for (Beretta) choke tubes, $500. http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=48075846412 gauge, looks like a 1960s gun, $425. http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=480753620Ugartechea, 12 gauge, English stock, toe repair, $560. http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=480645980Zabala Hermanos, 12 gauge, ejectors, 1960s gun (tax salvage import), stock showing some cracking at the action, $275. http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=479989148AyA 12 gauge, SST, FI gun, toe damage, $610. http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=480931558Another AyA 12 gauge, SST, $499. http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=479967184Another Zabala Hermanos, 12 gauge, Buy It Now $275. http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=480588802Another Zabala Hermanos, looks like a 1960s gun, 12 gauge, Buy It Now $350. http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=480961152Anoth Zabala Hermanos, 12 gauge, ejectors, SST, factory cut for (Beretta) choke tubes, $599 http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=481051134Laurona, 12 gauge, 1960s gun, $395. Now lets compare some of those Webley & Scott model 700 guns Larry is so fond of: http://www.gunsinternational.com/WEBLEY-SCOTT-12-ga-MODEL-700-S-x-SBOXLOCK.cfm?gun_id=100551592WEBLEY & SCOTT - MODEL 700 -12 GAUGE - S x S BOXLOCK - 26" BLS. $3,900. http://www.gunsinternational.com/WEBLEY-SCOTT-MODEL-700-BOXLOCK-12GA-SHOTGUN.cfm?gun_id=100548385WEBLEY & SCOTT, MODEL 700 12GA SHOTGUN, S/S, 26" BBL, 2 3/4, $3,400http://www.gunsinternational.com/Webley-Scott-Model-700-12-ga.cfm?gun_id=100534312Webley & Scott - Model 700 - 12 ga, $2,850. Do the math, and decide if having the name Webley & Scott on a gun is worth an additional $2,000 - $3,000 to you. Because a name is all that extra money is buying you.
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 3,218 Likes: 121
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 3,218 Likes: 121 |
Looks like a lot of those guns are made by Zabala. Zabala does not have the best reputation for quality. Heavy for the gauge, heavy or gritty trigger pulls, and not the best handling either. Rather bulky and bbl regulation problems. These ones look like they were made for import to the US and at a lower price point. The Zabala made Brittany series have those problematic ST's. The Falcon has a 12 1/2" LOP. To me it looks like the same low end crap you saw coming out of Spain in the 60's & 70's. The only good ones are the Matadors. So for me, I'll take the 700 or something similar any day. It's nice to pass down a gun to ones heirs that they can use and pass on also. I'm afraid the ones above wouldn't pass muster.
But, out of this whole group, didn't see one Vintage gun......odd
Gregory J. Westberg
MSG, USA
Ret
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Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,174
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,174 |
Kyrie, if you really think those guns are equivalent to a Webley & Scott 700, you're either high or completely ignorant as to what attributes make a quality gun. I think your definition of "high quality" is quite different than mine and many others on this forum.
I love Spanish guns... but I love the good ones. Most of the guns you've linked to are what gave Spain the bad reputation it has spent decades over-coming.
Adam
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 36
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 36 |
Kyrie, if you really think those guns are equivalent to a Webley & Scott 700, you're either high or completely ignorant as to what attributes make a quality gun. I think your definition of "high quality" is quite different than mine and many others on this forum.
I love Spanish guns... but I love the good ones. Most of the guns you've linked to are what gave Spain the bad reputation it has spent decades over-coming.
Adam X2
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Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 691 Likes: 7
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 691 Likes: 7 |
Since Kyrie's gotten all linky on us, maybe he'll link us to an Arrieta 578 with 7-pin locks. But the likelihood of that happening is less than him showing us some of those pre-1900 Spaniards.
Wild Skies
Since 1951
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Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 601 Likes: 39
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 601 Likes: 39 |
I wish you guys would quit discussing the good value of the Webley & Scott 700 series guns on this forum & let the uninformed & those that don't want to be informed continue spending their $$ on new bespoke Spanish boxlocks with disc set strikers and $500 used Spanish junk. As they say, "ignorance is bliss".
If you persist, I'm afraid that you will drive the price up on the W&S guns for those of us who think they are one of the better values out there in the used SxS market.
The only issue with the W&S 700 series is that they don't make them any more so you have to do a little searching to find the configuration & dimensions that will work for you.
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 9,767 Likes: 757
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 9,767 Likes: 757 |
The only issue with the W&S 700 series is that they don't make them any more so you have to do a little searching to find the configuration & dimensions that will work for you. I have a friend who would have agreed with you. Until the first shot of the first day of opening pheasant season, in 2012. When his 700 became a not-so-good deal single shot. And remained that way for two years. Opinions are like belly buttons, everyone has one. Facts, are different. Best, Ted
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Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 601 Likes: 39
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 601 Likes: 39 |
The only issue with the W&S 700 series is that they don't make them any more so you have to do a little searching to find the configuration & dimensions that will work for you. I have a friend who would have agreed with you. Until the first shot of the first day of opening pheasant season, in 2012. When his 700 became a not-so-good deal single shot. And remained that way for two years. Opinions are like belly buttons, everyone has one. Facts, are different. Best, Ted Yawn! How many times do we have to hear the story about the W&S 700 with the broken integral striker. I had a friend whose 20 ga Purdey shattered a hammer resulting in a long down time & expensive repair but I don't think this is a common thing with Purdey guns any more than broken strikers are with W&S 700 series guns. If I was looking for an absolutely bullet proof shotgun it wouldn't be a light SxS of any nationality. At least the Purdey & W&S 700 were worth repairing. Speaking of facts, the only shotguns I've really had reliability issues with were a Garbi 103 A with a single trigger from the late 80's that continued to double from new & after several gunsmiths worked on it & a Remington 1100 slug gun on which the bolt would not go into battery about once every 10 shots which was never corrected. Garbi makes some nice guns but that one wasn't. Remington 1100 shotguns are usually very reliable if well maintained & I have another just like it that has never failed to function.
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 11,383 Likes: 106
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 11,383 Likes: 106 |
Funny the way you didnt provide any links or auction numbers so people could verify your descriptions. Nice try :-) Well Kyrie, you didn't provide any links either. But to save the folks the trouble of looking at some of your treasures, I'll mention things you apparently missed in the descriptions . . . or chose to gloss over. http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=480954602Zabala Hermanos, 12 gauge, ejectors, SST, factory cut for (Beretta) choke tubes, $500. Aha . . . a BSA with a single trigger. Be still my beating heart! A decent old British name. Buy the original, with DT and extractors, and you'll be far better off. http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=48075846412 gauge, looks like a 1960s gun, $425. Also looks like it has a 12 1/2" LOP. A Spanish gun for a midget. http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=480753620Ugartechea, 12 gauge, English stock, toe repair, $560. Ah yes . . . the Elmer's glue repair. http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=480645980Zabala Hermanos, 12 gauge, ejectors, 1960s gun (tax salvage import), stock showing some cracking at the action, $275. Some cracking . . . http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=479989148AyA 12 gauge, SST, FI gun, toe damage, $610. Not only toe damage, but the typical Matador SST . . . which, if it's not the worst ST in the business, it's certainly in the running. The trigger usually works, but also often has creepy, crappy pulls. Old AyA's . . . stick with DT's. http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=480931558Another AyA 12 gauge, SST, $499. Same trigger as above. Same comments. I stopped there . . . enough Spanish crap for one day. As for the comparisons to a W&S 700 . . . seems to me that would be more like bumping heads with an AyA 4/53. Care to do a price check on them, Kyrie? Kinda like cars . . . no problem finding a Ford Focus that's cheaper than a Lincoln Continental. But if you want to compare apples to apples, then you need to stick with apples. If you want to buy a BSA rather than a W&S 700, be my guest. And you'll get what you pay for.
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 11,383 Likes: 106
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 11,383 Likes: 106 |
The only issue with the W&S 700 series is that they don't make them any more so you have to do a little searching to find the configuration & dimensions that will work for you. I have a friend who would have agreed with you. Until the first shot of the first day of opening pheasant season, in 2012. When his 700 became a not-so-good deal single shot. And remained that way for two years. Opinions are like belly buttons, everyone has one. Facts, are different. Best, Ted Ted, I was talking with a friend the other day about guns that break. He's a fan of German guns. I pointed out to him that I bought one several years ago that I really liked. Bought it knowing it had a broken striker--and Sauers have a reputation of being pretty tough guns. 2 year repair . . . I'd say that's the owner's fault. Ask the gunsmith when you're likely to get it back. Del Whitman fixed mine. More like a 2 month repair. And which one of Kyrie's treasures do you really think is a good buy at the listed price?? There are good deals out there on inexpensive Spanish guns, but you need to exercise caution. If you stick with DT/extractors--like your Uggie (and the AyA made for Sears I picked up not too long ago)--that eliminates a couple potential problem areas. If you're going to go cheap, go no frills. And unless you're really lucky, you buy an older gun with disk-set strikers, you're still going to have to find a gunsmith who will make new ones for you. Uggie/AyA, you might luck out and be able to get parts . . . maybe. Or my friend's 2" Arrieta . . . that broke strikers almost immediately. Otherwise, you're probably in the same boat I was in when one of my Army & Navy pair from the 30's broke disk-set strikers. New ones had to be made, and that also takes time.
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