doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Shooting Damascus guns?

I have been shooting Damascus for as long as I have been reloading proper loads for them. Even then the first few times my teeth were on edge. Problem was two fold. I knew factory loads were too hot but many of them had been shot in the old guns before I came along. Had they done unseen damage I wondered? Not apparently as none have failed to date. The second problem was manufactures telling shooters that all Damascus guns were unsafe to shoot. This was in part to generate new gun sales. Easier to sell a gun if you have been told all you own are unsafe. And some makers of ammo knew loads needed to work autos had to be loaded to too high a psi for doubles. They put the fear of God in many, including me for a long time.

Now that the 20ga Flues damascus has been shot without any problems, I think it's time to take the Lewis Gr4 12ga for a spin!
Gotta love it.

Lewis Grade 4? I just picked one of those up this weekend. The barrels appear to be the "American Flag" pattern..It needs a little work, but will be in service by Fall..

I'm a total research monkey- comes of the whole 'being a writer' thing, I think.

Reading SAAMI's website (my God there's a lot of information there) their specifications for cartridge pressures are designed to try to insure that using ammo made to their maximum recommended pressure will not result in a catastrophic failure of ANY gun capable of chambering the cartridge provided that the gun is manufactured for that caliber. Given that cartridges have very long lifespans many calibers are rated significantly under the maximum safe pressure that will cause a catastrophic failure in even the oldest, most poorly made guns it is likely to be used in.

Given that many damascus shotguns are Nitro Proofed and were even more common at the time the standards were established it is reasonable to conclude that any standard pressure round will not cause a catastrophic failure of the chamber or barrel of an 'as manufactured' gun in good condition.

That being said it doesn't mean that a steady diet of modern high-pressure loads is a good idea. The use of high-pressure loads in any weapon will accelerate wear even in a modern weapon of good quality. The barrels are also not the only concern; the frame can stretch, the locks can be damaged etc. Modern loads may be 'high pressure' for old guns even if they don't blow them up.

All in all I'll err on the side of caution and rely on the experience of you good people when I 'come over to the dark side' and get my damascus gun.

Damascus, that is a really nice gun. Reminds me of the one James Mason/Sir Henry was fielding in "the Shooting Party". I just watched it again recently and it is a very good movie. Set with the foreboding just prior to the outbreak of WW I. A look at the end of the Edwardian Era and the loss of a generation of young men. I also enjoy shooting my Damascus barreled guns. The beauty of these barrels will never be seen again. We are fortunate that there are skilled workers that can bring back their faded glory. Fascinating just how many patterns one can find with these barrels.

Mr. Pearce: In your ongoing study of metallurgy, look closely into the theory of "elastic limits". Once you have some familiarity with that component of the science, I believe your comfort level with "the dark side" of shot-gunning will come up a bit.

Lloyd- I'm familiar with elastic limits and my comfort level with 'the dark side' is happily high. Basically I just meant that I'm not going to feed an antique shotgun a steady diet of high-pressure loads, not because I'm worried about the barrels but because I am worried about excessive wear on other parts of the gun.

Excellent. Your're another example of the rapid "learning curve" experienced by people once they become members of this board. All due to Dave and all the other learned folks who post here. This board is truly like no other.

Regards
Ken

Don't want to give away too much in the unlikely possibility I can get someone to publish this stuff but the idea that pattern welded barrels are more elastic than fluid steel may also be mythology. In the tensile testing study, the average % Elongation was 9%; High - 16% and Low - 5% with a slight advantage to the crolle barrels. The average for the 3 samples of fluid steel was almost 14%.
A Parker fella recently did composition analysis on 4 different Parker named fluid steels, but not tensile testing which I hope will be forthcoming.

I've also got the Elastic Limit / 2% Yield data, but here are some historical comparisons

Winchester Nickel Steel, introduced for the 1894 rifle about 1896, and which was sourced from Bethlehem Steel Co. in 1900
http://books.google.com/books?id=YzhUAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA181&lpg
Tensile strength � 106,900 psi, Elastic limit � 81,000, Elongation � 16%

Winchester Proof Steel, developed for the Model 21 and introduced in 1931, 115,000-120,000 psi with an elastic limit of 105,000 psi
http://books.google.com/books?id=9SvbdIv4OKYC&pg=PA57&lpg

Remington introduced Ordnance Steel for the (Model 1894) Hammerless Double in 1897. The 1902 catalog stated the Remington Ordnance Steel tensile strength was 110,000 lbs per sq. inch with an elastic limit of 60,000 psi

Marlin �Special Smokeless Steel� introduced for the Model 1893 rifle in 1897 and Model 21 Grade C Pump in 1907: 100,000 psi with a �very high elastic limit�.