doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com The quest for wisdom- Slacum and Red Oil

One of the points I'd like to make about traditional finishes is the historical availability of ingredients. Finishes containing copal in particular. African copal was widely available in Europe during the late nineteenth and early twentieth centuries. This was due to the European colonies in Africa. I suspect that this was one of the major reasons it was widely used as an ingredient. The copal "Trade" nowadays is considerably different, and it is not as readily available, nor inexpensive. There are many other resins available as well, from other areas of the world. From what I've been able to determine, all were considerably softer, and therefore less desirable than African copal, especially copal coming from East Africa. Copal, being very hard and fairly pure, was (as it appears to me) the resin of choice. The only other one of real note was the very-expensive use of Baltic Amber. Copal was considered to be partially fossilized, with amber being completely fossilized. Copal was also the base for the early spar varnish used on ships. Nowadays, with the development of modern (and less expensive) poly-type coatings, true copal finishes are really a thing of the past.

Shellac finishes were more popular in America because, beginning in the 1800s, seedlac was being directly imported from the Far East, thereby avoiding the hefty duties previously imposed by the British Crown.

Here's an interesting reference work from 1921 that covers quite a bit of info on older finishes:
https://openlibrary.org/works/OL10663281W/Rubber_resins_paints_and_varnishes

Regards
Ken

Gentlemen, thank You for the input so far!

Damascus- I get the feeling that You "have been around" and treaded the same paths that I already have entered or are about to enter. That makes Your contribution even more valuable to me- thank You.

Yes..the search for the "holy grail" of Slacums is a tedious one and if not proper precautions are taken one might end up crazy on Your "grail quest".

The quest is probably- as You already said- unobtainable and for me I will suffice with a functional Slacum which I will certainly obtain with the use of the recipes already mentioned above.

But I am also curios by nature and it is always nice to get a deeper knowledge of why things work and how they work. I probably need some more knowledge of the basic chemistry that You have to master, and therefore I might sometimes lack the proper perspective how things work together and their effect on the end result.

I find what You wrote about lac, resin, gum and carriers is very interesting- The carriers (oil and turp?) carry the lac, gum or resin into the wood and let them set there while evaporating?

Regarding the Venice Turp I checked with some friends who are in the horse business- they do not use this (could not find it in any of the local horse equipment shops either)so I took the short route and went to the artist store, but I will keep my eyes open in the future when among horse people.

I will also check out my Asian market for Toad legs

May I ask if You put canuba wax in Your Slacum from the beginning? I am pondering about if it will hinder the penetration of oil if added early on (have not used wax in my Slacums before)

Ken, thank You for the input which I found very interesting especially what You wrote about copal ad the link to the old book.

You both also put Your finger on the key of success- application which in turn �based on my own experience- have three main components- Time, patience and thiiiin layers�

I will try to add a couple of pics to the thread on one of my older projects- but i cant seem to find out to add pics- the file manager button...

Erland

One of my older projects, which I label as a �semi-successful one�. It�s a old English rook rifle which I sanded down to 2000 grit and steel wool.

After sanding it down I applied a couple of layers of CCL red oil then quite a few layers of Bolied linseed oil with balsamic turpentine. When the wood was saturated I applied about 5-6 coats of CCL gunstock oil with burnishing in between coats.

My mistake was that I were to eager between coats and in some angles I can find that the top coat seems to bee a bit �milky- probably due to me not letting things harden enough in between coats. There is also some residue from the steel wool in the finish..

http://www.ladda-upp.se/bilder/fcocoscamvzyc/

http://www.ladda-upp.se/bilder/dtpnrugableye/

http://www.ladda-upp.se/bilder/gwislelbcasgmb/

One of my Slacum bottles at least got a proper label

http://www.ladda-upp.se/bilder/zzgrufeoxteala/


Erland

I have found that most of the interest in gun stock finishing lies in period finishes and the most popular finish period is beginning of the Brit Victorian period to about 1920.
Because of my long standing interest in gun finishes I have gathered all sorts of potions for gun stock finishing some are I am sure figments of people�s imaginations and others are the genuine article.
To start the finishes where used in the Birmingham trade by people who used them to make a living, tradesmen did not make up finishes to keep them they were made up and used. The reason I say this is that someone mentioned that after a year mixtures oxidised or changed in other ways in the world of work they did not last that long.
If you want to keep finishes for a long period of time keep the individual constituents separately and mix them as required.
So let�s start with the oils first and the reasons why they were used:-

Linseed Oil. This was cheap and being a natural drying oil you could apply it and it would eventually dry and give a finish. But work demanded that the sooner the finish was completed the more stocks could be completed in the working week. So Boiled Linseed oil was introduced contrary to its name it is not boiled it has driers added in the way of a heavy metal in times past a Lead derivative was used promoting a shorter drying times.
Tung Oil. Not so cheap but it is also a natural drying oil and there are two main benefits one it does not darken the wood as much as Linseed oil 2 the finished surface layer is far more robust than Linseed oil and by adding driers its drying time can also be shortened




In the Photograph is the Victorian Trinity for making stock finishes left to right: - Copal. Amber. Pine Resin sometimes known as Colophony.
Copal. Not truly fossilised resin but when mixed with Tung or Linseed Oil makes a fine finishing oil. Copal is readily available from art suppliers and not that expensive to make its use prohibitive.
Amber. As we say on this side of the pond �it is the puppies privets� makes one of the finest though expensive finishing oils. The Amber in the photograph is Baltic Amber I purchased whilst on holiday in Poland and extremely cheap because it was in fine pieces. But processing it at home can make you severely ill due to the toxic fumes it gives off when roasted. When processed with Tung oil it became the finest �spar varnish� used to protect sailing ship spars giving the greatest protection of any finish of the time. A popular Victorian finishing oil was made by mixing one part �spar varnish� with one part �red oil� and one part Tung oil.
Pine resin. This is the work horse of a gunsmiths workshop not only is it used as a flux for soldering barrels and ribs it makes a very serviceable stock finish and was used in great quantities for making a cheap base finish on stocks for wax polish finish.



In the photograph are the first cousins of the trinity:- Venice Turpentine and Shellac the Victorians preferred to use Garnet Shellac.
Venice Turpentine was used by artists hundreds of years before it was used as a constituent of stock finishing oils and I find the end results of finishing oils it is used in rather disappointing because its toughness factor is very suspect.



In this photograph are the colouring agents left to right:- Vandyke Brown. Alkanet in Oil. Asphaltum.
Vandyke brown. This artist pigment is one of the oldest types and perfect for adding colour to wood though the Earth pigment type must be used, this is manufactured from Iron ore so it is extremely stable and not effected by sunlight. It can be mixed with oils or Turpentine making an extremely universal colouring agent.
Alkanet steeped in oil. Commonly known as �red oil� the oil in the photograph is stock oil meaning the Alkanet has been sitting in the oil for well over a year giving the oil a very potent red/brown colour which can be cut with clean oil or turpentine to give the desired colour.
Asphaltum. This substance may come as a surprise but in Victorian times it was very much used as a wood dye before the introduction of Azo dyes, and by careful adjustments of the quantity of oil or turpentine carriers it is amazing how many colours are obtainable from dark brown to red/brown and all the colours in between.
I hope this makes things a little clearer especially if you want to try your hand at making your own wood finishes.

Damascus- Thank You for a very interesting and knowledgeable reply..

A lot of things i never heard of before, which in combination with the photos gave me a lot of useful information regarding the different parts in a slacum and that there a quite a few options to choose between- opening the lid on a can of worms comes to mind..

Im about to start my Alkanet mix soon, which oil are You using- boiled or raw, do You mix in tong or other bearers also?

If You feel that You got the time please feel free to share more of Your extensive knowledge.

Best regards Erland

Hi Erland

Red oil traditionally its colour came from �Madder Root� and other versions did use �Dragons Blood� a tree resin. I did notice in the H&H film Madder root was mentioned possibly trying to keep the blinds drawn over Alkanet.
Alkanet colouring we all know now is a plant root derivative but it also has another quality other than being a dye. In fact its first major use was as an Acid Alkaline indicator in the early nineteenth century but it was superseded by the more efficient �Litmus.� So what can happen when you apply it to raw un-treated timber its colour can differ from one piece of timber to another and sometimes across a piece of timber. Also the colour character changes when infused in water oil or spirits so some bright person noticed this possibly working in the soap industry because Alkanet was used to colour soaps and the candles supplied by mine owners to stop them being stolen by miners for home use. So Alkanet can do more than a factory manufactured dye stuff it can change colour according to what it is applied to just the thing for adding a bit of mystery to a high price gun finish.
Ken 61 did give you my version of �Red Oil� but truthfully the formula was given to me by a chap called Andy half a life time away now whose sir name to my shame I omitted to take note of while writing down the constituents of his version of red oil. It is made from 50/50 Linseed oil and Walnut oil but do not purchase paint store Linseed oil purchase edible Linseed oil which is sometimes sold under the name Flax seed oil also edible Walnut oil both are more than a match for Art quality oils. Dried Alkanet root pieces was specified and not the root powder the reason given was the powder could stay in the woods pores and on the surface then leaching into other applied coats also no driers are added to Andy�s Oil.
You did ask about waxes and my personal conclusion was not to put wax in finishing oils for this reason, if you put a wax on an untreated piece of wood and polish it up after about a week the shine will disappear because the wax slowly sinks into the wood. So to keep the shine a barrier must applied to the woods surface to stop the wax sinking in and what better than Linseed oil let it dry and then apply the wax as a polish and that silky smooth lustre remains for a considerable time before it is oxidised. All my guns stocks have a thin waterproof surface treatment so minor dents and marks do not show with a soft sheen using wax polish made from a mix of Bees and Carnauba Wax in Turpentine. Oh I do enjoy the smell of real Turpentine!!!!

My experiments tend to show that simpler is best. I developed a variation of the Newell method that uses varnish to build up a humidity blocking layer in the wood and then proceeds with artist linseed oil as the surface finish.

A report by the US Forestry Service graded wood finishes according to the protection from water spray they provide. Epoxy finishes are top, oil finishes bottom. Since oil finishes are the best looking, we choose them for our stocks, knowing that they lack protection. The modified Newell method seems like a good compromise.

In my experience the prepping of the wood is the most important part, and Erland's description "not feeling the wood" is spot on. With the surface that well prepped any drying oil will do.

When making "Andy's Oil", I use Alkanet powder, rather than the chips. I filter the oil through coffee filters. It's a slow process, and it requires many filters, as they clog up rapidly. So, only small amounts can be filtered at a time. The oil, properly filtered, comes out very clear.

Regards
Ken

Hi all

First post here.

Please forgive me for reviving a very old thread and, perhaps worse, referencing a couple of even older ones. I read this thread and the three others listed below with interest when I wanted to redo the finish on an Anschutz .22LR rifle which, frankly, a gunsmith had made a botch of. I decided to strip it and do it all over, the "traditional English gunstock way".

http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=215&page=1

http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=125797&page=1

http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=96539&page=1

I reached out to Dig Hadoke of Vintage Guns, purchased some of his Red Oil and picked his brains as regards method. Then the work began. That was 6-7 months ago and I am still going. Almost there. I'd certainly do a few things differently next time around. First and foremost I would use a grain filler rather than relying on gunstock finish oil and rotten stone to do that work at a painfully slow pace.

Erland asked a few questions including some in relation to Red Oil which interest me also. While I purchased a bottle of Dig's oil to do the job mentioned above, out of curiosity I decided to also make up a batch of my own.

In the above mentioned threads there are a number of references given to recipes for "red oil". Early on Dig mentioned "turpentine and boiled linseed oil in which alkanet root was steeped". (Later he referenced a steeping period of 3 months and the longer the better.) Salopian followed with "take about 70grms of beaten / crushed root, immerse in 100ml of pure turpentine for about 4 weeks in a sealed jar then add 100ml of linseed oil and reseal leave for another 3 / 4 weeks and then use as required." Later, Salopian mentioned a modified recipe from Sheraton: "take 4oz of alkanet root, broken into short strips,as much opened with the hand as possible, so that the bark of the root which tinges the oil may fly off, steep in 1pint of raw linseed oil to which you have added 1 tablespoon of the oil of the spruce, steep for a week and strain it through a cloth." And still later Dig mentions "I find I get better colour from alkanet root steeped in raw linseed for several months - rather than using it in alcohol or turpentine, which dilutes it too much in my experience" while Salopian said "I have had no problems with 4oz of root soaking in 1 pint of oil. Longer you leave it the better it gets, shake it about once a week." A few posts above in this thread, damascus mentions flax seed oil and walnut oil (50:50).

So 6 months ago I added 80 grammes of Alkanet root to 250ml each of Walnut oil and flax seed oil and placed it in a cupboard, giving it a gentle shake a few times a week. Today I finally decided to "test" it side by side with the little of Dig's oil I have left over.

In short, they are very different. My oil batch is considerably redder while his is more towards the red/brown colour one would ultimately seek in the finished stock. Both are really very opaque in the bottle, but the reason why I left mine to soak so long is because his appears to still be that much 'denser' in colour. I've attached a pic of a drop of each on a paper towel; Vintage Gun's red oil on the left, my batch on the right. It's as if mime now needs to brown in the way blood does when it coagulates.



I'm actually wondering if there is another "trick" here which I have missed. Any ideas? I've another project to do after this one (a shotgun which should be considerably easier than a thumbhole rifle stock with all its extra contours and surface area) but I am rather nervous about using my batch to colour the wood.

Regards

JJJ

Alkanet is a natural product so the final colour outcome is as they say in the lap of the gods. Though all is not lost the actual final colour is what it looks like when applied to the wood. Having a strong well coloured batch of red oil is a good thing because you can adjust the final colour by adding more oil to lighten things up. Wood finishing when you look past the two coats of Varnish and use the gun the next day, starts to become all muck and magic for want of better words, and can take a large chunk out of tour lifetime to realise that you have only scratched the surface a little.