doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Help identifyng maker. (British Pinfire)

Recieved a gun i purchased today to clean up and sympathetically restore.

The gun is a british made pinfire gun 28.25 inch barrels ( probably shortened from thirty) it it slightly unusual to look at as it has a forend that is an inch or two longer than is typical.

Really good coverage for a back action pinfire with scroll and border engraving and good quality figured walnut stock. Lock inletting is very high quality.

Operating the under lever pushes a bar up through the action body to push open the barrels which is something i have not seen before.

I bought it as an unnamed gun, but on close inspection the name "smith" is just decipherable on the locks, however i do not know anything about any gun makers of this period.. The top tag bolt is engraved with what could be a yorkshire rose so it could be provincial but my instincts say London, its in bad shape and will take a carefull hand even to get it broken down to a point where i can see the proof marks so i'll return with more info as i find it.

Photos would be a big help as well. At the very least they would give us something to drool over.

As we all know too well!

Believe me when i say there is absolutely nothing to drool over here, just a lot of rust and some suggestive hints that at one time this was a thing of reasonable quality. I don't have a camera that will really show off whats there in an un restored state; its not quite as bad as some of those nepalease cache guns but its not far off.

I have found London View and Proof marks either 1855-68 or 68-75 its unclear and rusted, rose twist damascus tubes are marked 13 and stamped with what looks to be 110 as the serial number, however the action and trigger guard are definately stamped 113.
Some suggestive scratches look as if they say Smith but the rest unclear.

Thoughts are from the other feintly visible marks either WM Smith or William Smith, could be "anything" smith at this point.

Looking at the serial numbers again it looks like they made a mistake when stamping the numbers. The trigger guard is 113, the action flats are 113 on one side and 113 on the other side, but on that right hand side the three was previously stamped as a 0 but was then scrubbed back and stamped as a 3.. kind of interesting.

Here something to keep you going, from IGC:

Name William Smith
Other Names Samuel Smith; Samuel & Charles Smith
Address1 St James's
Address2 St Pancras
Address3 34 Tottenham Court Road
Address4 2 New Lisle Street
Address5 59 Princes Street, Leicester Square
Address6 64 Princes Street, Leicester Square
Address7 18 Oxenden Street, Haymarket
City/Town London
Country United Kingdom
Trade Gun lock maker; gun maker
Other Address
Dates 1792-1875
Notes
William Smith was apprenticed to John Joyner in 1766 and turned over to William Shepherd in 1771. He was recorded as a gun lock maker in St James's in 1792, and St Pancras in 1800.
In 1805 (some reports say 1801 but this has not been confirmed) he established a business at 34 Tottenham Court Road and traded as a gun maker. In 1806 the firm moved to 2 New Lisle Street. On 28 July 1812 he patented an "early quick firing" gun lock (No. 3588) which incorporated a convex hammer face. In 1817 he was appointed Gunmaker-in-Ordinary to the Prince Regent and moved to 59 Princes Street, Leicester Square. In 1820 when the Prince Regent became King George IV he was appointed Gunmaker-in-Ordinary and the following year moved to 64 Princes Street. By this time he had been appointed Gunmaker to the Emperor of Russia and the King of Bavaria. In 1825 (some reports say 1823) William was succeeded by his son Samuel (1794-1855) and the name of the firm changed to Samuel Smith (some reports say Samuel Smith & Co). On 7 August 1830 Samuel patented a percussion cap and nipple named the "Imperial" (No. 5978). This cap was larger than normal and the hammer had interchangeable hammer noses to fit different sizes of nipple which were short and flat the intention being to place the primer close to the powder charge. Samuel claimed the invention made it "impossible to clog or miss-fire". In 1831 Samuel submitted a percussion musket to the Board of Ordnance but it was rejected. In 1834 Samuel's brother, Charles, joined him and the firm became Samuel & Charles Smith. Between 1835 and 1837 they were appointed Gun Makers to His Majesty (William IV) and the Duke of Gloucester. The firm continued to make flintlock guns until about 1850. In 1855 Samuel died. Presumably Charles had predeceased him because Samuel's two sons, also Samuel and Charles, took over the firm.
On 11 April 1867 Samuel (Jnr) patented a snap action breech-loader (No. 1075) with a single bite and sliding bolt. Half-cocking the right hammer withdrew the bolt. Although the specification is incomplete, it seems that an extension on the right hand tumbler withdrew the bolt but disengaged on firing. It may be that none of this type of action were made. In 1870 the firm moved to 18 Oxenden Street, Haymarket, Samuel and Charles occupied these premises until 1875 when the firm closed down and the brothers appear to have emigrated to Australia.

Or:

Name William Smith
Address1 Potters Lane, Aston Park
City/Town Birmingham
Country United Kingdom
Trade Gun maker
Other Address
Dates 1873-1875

Or:

Name William Smith
Address1 110 Lancaster Street
City/Town Birmingham
Country United Kingdom
Trade Gun & pistol maker
Other Address
Dates 1846-1886

What do the proof marks tell you - London or Birmingham?

Tim

Those in the red box are the marks i can see. The gun has no extractor.

Single bite rotary under lever which also has a cam mechanism on this rising bar making an the underlever unlock and tilt the barrels forward.

Barrels also appear to be marked AB who i assume was the barrel maker.

Identified as "George Smith" Had the lock plate sat in penetrating oil and its become a bit more decipherable took a pull and its definately george smith. There was also the makers name and some kind of legend on the barrels which is scrubbed out so if anyone has any information on George Smith it would be helpfull. Its very likely that i will have to fit new locks to this gun as the one original remaining lock is beyond hope; and finding one to match the original on the left side is more of a pipe dream still.

If your fitting new locks anyway, why not have some fun with it and convert it to centerfire? It should be quite a bit easier to find a set of centerfire locks I would think.

I see what your saying. I'm in the UK and here Pinfires can be kept off ticket if they are not going to be shot.

The barrels are very lightweight anyway and on top of that are a bit thin so i don't think its worth converting it to the be forced to put it on ticket and to still only be able to use light black powder loads in it. If i were going to put it on ticket i would rather enjoy shooting it as it were made and intended.

They are back action locks which are fairly easy to replace by carefully cutting and replacing the wood around the head of the stock and re in letting for the new locks.

All i shall have to do will be to get a set of back action locks, all the better if they have similar engraving, fit replacement hammer castings, and fit the locks; i may have to do some alterations to the tumbler if there is no half cock notch.