doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Spanish Gun Market. What is your input?

Exactly what Shotgunlover writes. There is a "feel" to a well balanced, good handling gun and the current Spanish guns have captured it.

This should be a selling point, but many people cannot tell the difference even if they shoulder or shoot a well balanced gun and then a clunker.

It is truly mind boggling that this feel cannot be captured in cheap guns. It shouldn't cost any more to make a nicely handling gun than one that is ugly to use.

That said, the AyA #2 used to be, in recent years, the largest selling SxS in England. Wonder if that's still true? I seem to recall that they are relatively cheaper in England than in the US.

How could you not want to hunt birds with this 6.25lb 20-bore Woodward OU (assuming someone else paid for it)?
Woodward OU

Too bad the Spanish makers don't seem interested in producing a facsimile of this gun . . . .

1st point
If I have read once, I have read 100 times, that the Spanish makers struggle to deliver guns as ordered. Consistently.

2nd point
I care not to waste a moment of my time arguing with a gun dealer when the item delivered does not match specifications.

Both of those points seem to occur simultaneously for too many buyers. I suspect most buyers do not match their new gun with their order form.

Current 'list' price for an AyA No 2 in the UK is GBP 5700. I'm not sure what discount you would get, but that is HUGELY more than a few years ago.
But many European guns have gone up a lot as well, notably Beretta

Gentlemen,

A couple points to ponder. The first point is re-sale value.

The re-sale value of a used gun, in perfect condition, is about 60%. If I were to go into any gun shop and buy a brand new Ruger GP 100 and immediately offer to sell the gun - still NIB � back to the shop they would offer me about 60% of what I just paid. If I offered the gun as a trade-in, they would permit about 75% of the price to be applied to some other gun. That�s just the reality of the gun business, as a business.

And yes, a Spanish side lock shotgun is not a Ruger GP 100. It has an even worse re-sale value. Spanish shotguns are artisanal guns. They are hand made to the customer�s requirement. They are, in essence, like a hand tailored suit. How much would you expect to get for a used hand tailored suit?

The other point concerns the misapprehension that Spanish shotguns are just copies of English game guns. They, generally, aren�t.

The vast majority of Spanish shotguns are European game guns, made with the hunting conditions in Spain in mind. It�s easily possible to have a Spanish shotgun maker produce a European game gun with an English flavor to it (AyA has made this a major part of their business model). It�s also possible to have the same gun made with a German flavor (think pistol grip stock with cheek piece), or an American flavor (think single selective trigger). The Spanish gun maker will do these things because the buyer asks; not because they know no other way. These are artisanal shotguns; they are Spanish made European game (or competition) guns, with whatever styling the customer has requested.

Good point about the "tailored-suit" aspect. Some certainly are, but many of them aren't. Standard built guns are on the racks as we speak. Another aspect that nobody has mentioned is the devaluation of the American Dollar. We don't notice it so much domestically, but it's a big deal when international trade is involved.

Respectfully, and with no offense intended, this is one of the least understood and appreciated areas of Spanish artisanal shotguns. There are no standard built guns. All of the artisanal makers, from Arrieta to Zubillaga, don�t start making a gun until they have a customer, an order, and a deposit. If you, or I, or a retailer (think �Orvis�, or �Trust Eibarres�) order one gun or ten guns work doesn�t start until the maker has the order with gun details and a sizable deposit.

If that hypothetical ten gun order was for ten guns made to the same set of requirements, then upon delivery those ten guns are going to look pretty much as if they came from a standard pattern. They didn�t; they were just made to the same set of requirements. This is why we find sets of guns from a maker that aren�t in that maker�s catalog, with model names that also aren�t in the maker�s catalog. Some retailer ordered some number of guns made to a pattern he thought would sell well, with a model name he thought would appeal to his market. Not standard guns� guns made to the same set of custom(er) requirements.


Truth that!

The Federal Reserve was founded in 1913 and the US dollar has lost 98% of its value since then. We went off the gold standard domestically in 1934, off the silver standard in 1964, off the gold standard internationally in 1971. That�s the point at which the dollar stopped being money and just became currency.

For those who don�t know the difference between money and currency, behold � two one dollar coins:



On the left is a one dollar (silver) coin minted in 1879, on the right is a one dollar (base metal) coin minted in 2000.

The 1879 year dollar would have bought 20 loaves of bread the day it was minted. Today, if that silver dollar was sold for its silver value the proceeds from that sale would still buy 20 loaves of bread.

The 2000 year dollar would have bought most of one loaf of bread on the day it was minted. Today in would buy less than half a loaf of bread. The metal it was made from was worth less than a dollar in 2000, and is still worth less than a dollar.

Money has, and holds, intrinsic value. Currency didn�t, and still doesn�t.

kyrie: wonderful post. love your discussion of the difference between money and currency. hope to hear from you again.

If you like old guns, it isn't much of a stretch to like old coins and the history associated with that line of interest. It is very useful to understand how gold and silver have worked in our monetary system and in the rest of the world. Going forward, it may be critical. What something is "worth" means different things to different people. Tangible assets, of which guns and gold are both good examples, are very likely to become very important in this "fiat" (meaning "unbacked by anything tangible, other than a promise to pay") currency-dominated world.

It should come as no surprise to anyone that the gun market cycles up and down; it has always done so. The trade prospers when the market is up and suffers when it is down. Down tends to �shake out� the weak players; so it is in most markets.

I have shopped Spanish guns since reading (and re-reading and re-re-reading, etc.) MM�s �Spanish Best.� I guess we�d have to say I remained unconvinced; never bought. Not sure why, either. I am very sure that perception is a big factor and brand name is a major selling point. Perception of brand name seems to be made up of firm longevity, production level, % of production in high grade guns, enduring firm creativity, and social acceptance. Might be interesting to work out a consensus grade for the various Spanish makers in the above factors. That might well point them in the direction they need to improve.

Most of you know that I have a data base of objective handling. Curiously, I find that most subjective handling assessments to be heavily based on brand name. That is, swing effort lies more in the eye of the beholder than in the hands. Take the following two guns:

AyA #2 12 bore with 28� bbls and 15� LOP � 6# 11 oz, 4 �� balance to front trigger, unmounted swing effort at 1.57, mounted swing at 7.03, and half-weight radius at 10.45

Boss SLE 12 bore with 30� bbls and 14 �� LOP � 6# 11 oz, 4 5/8� bal to front trigger, unmounted swing effort at 1.57, mounted swing at 6.85, and half-weight radius at 10.43

If presented the two head to head for handling, most shooters will decide that the Boss has better �balance� (the common term that is used as a summative of handling properties). Clearly, the two guns are indistinguishable objectively. BTW, there is no objective summative term; a gun�s handling description requires weight, balance, unmounted and mounted swing effort for a complete description. There is no doubt in my mind that Spanish makers are perfectly capable of producing guns with handling to match any reasonable pattern.

Some makers have weathered �downs� in the past by being innovative. Seems to me the Spanish might want to market guns with both bespoke stock fit and bespoke handling. A number of modern target guns have been produced with adjustable stock dimensions and adjustable weight and weight location. Missing is how to deal with handling fit.