doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Syracuse Arms

ugly picture of a DE 16..

Love to find one of those.

"I have just added my first SAC to my accumulation of American Doubles. It won't arrive for a week or so but the info from the seller(yes an online purchase) lets me believe it is a Grade 3. I am hoping Mr. Archer or one of you other knowledgeable gents can educate me on what I have. I am somewhat up on Hollenbeck and his history in the trade. Looking to learn at what ser# the first "The Syracuse" labeled guns appeared and the last "Hollenbeck". Was the change abrupt at a certain serial number or did the numbers overlap?

Will need to see more pics before I can be of any help identifying your new SAC. All I can tell from those photos is that the stock head is fitted flush to the frame, meaning that the manufacture date should be between 1896 (when the name changed) and 1902 when the "stocks in-letted into frame" feature was first cataloged. The engraving would most likely indicate a Grade 3 gun, and barrel steel would most likely be "Improved Damascus", although barrel steel type was seldom marked on early SAC guns. As noted this gun does have an early serial number, but SAC serial numbers don't always indicate early manufacture; instead period production features determine the manufacture period (I.e. Chris above has my old Grade C SAC gun with a 4-digit sn#556X; that gun has the sliding cocking plate feature introduced in late 1903, and the ejector on/off device first cataloged in 1902 and both features on an early model frame). Chris's Grade DE above is a very rare SAC 16-bore with optional Whitworth Steel barrels, and the first lead I got on that gun is when Daryl Halquist advertised it (and an early Grade BE) for sale in the inaugural/premier issue of the DGJ (Winter 1989?). When I called Daryl, he had already sold the gun to Jim Howland; Jim later sold the gun to me, and I sold the gun a few years later when my corporate job went away and I had to have cash to survive. Chris has several pieces from my former SAC collection; and whenever I need a SAC fix, we arrange a visit!
I recently watched a most unusual SAC gun sell on Gunbroker that I really wanted; but unfortunately the other bidder was blessed with much deeper pockets. In reviewing the pics and speaking with the dealer, I believe the gun to have originally been an employee gun. At first glance this gun appeared to be a late production Grade B (sn#370XX); but on close inspection, it had a combination of features from several SAC grades as follows:
Butt stock - plain English with the SAC signature 3/4 "S" shaped pistol grip, but lacking the gold name shield standard on late production high-grade stocks. Grip panel checkering appeared to be a "B" pattern, but not as fine. Cheeks were checkered, but the Grade B cheek panel carving around those panels was absent.
Fame - the frame had been shaped and filed as per all SAC frames used on Grade B and higher SAC guns. Frame sides were engraved with a single dog on either side; but the dogs were larger than those standard on late production Grade B guns, and the scroll and border work on this gun frame was not as extensive as the standard late B guns. The engraving style and quality was clearly the same and equivalent to the engraving seen on factory engraved SAC guns. The water table featured the customary patent dates and serial number stamp, but no grade stamp. Overall evaluation of the engraving coverage on this SAC frame was that it was somewhere above A quality, but not B quality.
Trigger Guard - The guard featured two quail in an oval on the guard bow, and the bow itself had been filed with the raised ("V-shaped") middle ridge common to Grade B and higher SAC guns. Most late B SAC guns I've seen feature a dog scene on the guard bow; but the work on this piece was nicely done, and coverage was again above A and not quite B quality.
Barrels - The 30" barrels on this gun were not fitted with auto-ejectors, and therefore did not have SAC's ejector on/off switch; making this example the only "high-grade" post 1896 SAC gun I've seen to date w/o auto ejectors. Atop the barrels was engraved the maker's name and steel type, "Plain Steel"; and the barrel flats were stamped "OO", SAC's lowest grade barrel steel.
Forearm - Forearm wood and checkering was plain and the same quality as would be seen on a Grade 00, 0, or Grade 2 SAC gun.

All components were serialized to the gun so that it was not composed of parts even though such might be the collector's first glance conclusion. The dealer said this gun was local, and that his shop was 15 miles from Syracuse; but did hot know the history of this gun. The gun itself was one of the highest condition SAC guns I've seen and remained in amazing condition with nearly all original finishes remaining. I wanted the gun for that factor, as well as the fact that it was unique. I don't know if the purchaser realized this was most likely an employee gun or not; but he certainly got a unique SAC.

Tom,

Thank you for the excellent info, PM sent.

John

The Grade 3 gun arrived today. First observation: It is not a Grade 3. Top of the Watertable has a dandy "A" stamp. The barrel pattern looks to be the same, or near so, as Model2128Ga's A grade above. It has ejectors but no On/Off switch. There is no patent date other than the "Sept. 26 '93" on the Watertable. I have started to clean it up. Here are a couple fuzzy pics. I will try to get some better pics with a real camera tomorrow.







I think it may have been restocked. It is a round knob POW stock and the checkered panel behind the receiver does not follow the receiver line like all other SAC guns I have seen.







Please pipe in with your analysis.

John

John
That gun is a very early Syracuse AE grade; and the very early "V" spring forend fastener would likely date to gun to 1896 or 1897 (I haven't seen the V spring fastener on examples above serial number 7999. Can't tell if the stock is original, but the checkering panels are not those standard on early A SAC guns. Although most early SAC A Grades do feature stocks with a round knob grip, cheek panels are typically not checkered; and early A grade stocks do not feature the oval shaped gold name shield that was standard on later vintage A grades. But graded SAC guns in this serial number range sometimes fall into a grey area; as there are examples of low-numbered high grade SAC frames that were obviously built/finished much later in production; and will thus feature various combinations of early and late production features (remember the CE example, #55XX, that was obviously built in 1903 or '04). As to the ejector on/off device, that feature was not patented until late 1903 and thus was not standard, and therefore is not found on early examples (I've never seen that feature on a SAC gun with the V spring forend attachment). As to the V-spring forend attachment, my experience is that the forend will detach on recoil if that spring is weak.

I'm finishing up the barrels on my Hollenbeck Grade One. Here's what they look like. Tom, DocDrew, did I come reasonably close to accurate restoration?

Regards
Ken

Ken: I know Tom is OLD, but even HE likely hasn't seen a fresh from the factory Syracuse twist barrel (Kinda mean for a Lord's day )

This is a likely 'before' barrel. c. 1902 Syracuse Arms No. 0 'New Twist'



I believe an original Grade 1 Hollenbeck Gun Co. courtesy of Mark Landskov

Thanks,

I suspect I'm in the "Ballpark" as far as pattern. As far as what the barrels would look like when fairly new. The contrast on the original condition gun appears to have faded somewhat with slightly gray variations, possibly due to the years of cleaning and rubbing. There's lot's of longitudinal differences. That's one thing I've learned, long strokes are fine for prep, but circular strokes are required when polishing. I think the "New Twist" barrels on the later Syracuse marked guns had more pattern than the original twist used on the Hollenbeck models.

My barrels looked sort'a like the New Twist "before" picture, if you imagine them completely covered by rust and external pits. I got lot's of "Striking & Filing" practice, but I was happy with the results.

Regards
Ken

Here's a picture of three SAC tubes together. Restored by using a slightly modified "Original Parker Process". Picture color is a little off, with the barrels being much blacker in actuality. A Gr3 "Washington" on top, also marked "New Damascus", still needing the final polish and lacquer, A Gr1 Hollenbeck in the middle, and a GR0 "New Twist" set on the bottom. I think I have achieved "Accurate Restoration".