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Hoof #367364 05/25/14 03:07 AM
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I guess it depends if you want a brand new shotgun or not. I would look for a gun that can shoot standard modern ammunition, and is steel shot proofed. If you are looking for a new shotgun, I do think the Spanish guns are still a real good value. Better to buy one now before their prices start to sky rocket with new inventory. If you have already owned Ugartechea shotguns, then why not try an AyA. I have purchased both, a mid-grade ($4000) Ugartechea, sidelock, and an AyA 4/53 Cabela Classic. Both are very nice guns, but I do think that the AyA is a bit better in overall finishing. The new AyA shotguns are steel shot proofed as standard, and come with a five year warranty, so to me that shows that AyA is confident in their product. I think Ugartecha has a two year warranty. For the difference in money between the standard 4/53 and the Classic 4/53, I would personally go for the 100% engraved model, it is very nice, I really like mine. It is entirely hand cut engraved, as stated by Bruce Buck in the Shooting Sportsman book, Shotguns on Review. I have looked at mine under a 10x loop and can see a few variations, mistakes and/or imperfections, but not so noticeable to the naked eye. I bought my AyA 4/53 Classic new in 2012 from Cabelas, it is also marked NECG on the barrels. The NECG pictures of the AyA 4/25 look just the same as the Cabelas Classic 4/53. The Cabela AyA 4/53 guns come with a 29 inch barrel. I say buy what you like, you only live once.

Tim

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Originally Posted By: Tim Cartmell

---snip
The new AyA shotguns are steel shot proofed as standard
Snip---


Be very careful with this. Here is the proof mark for guns that have been proofed for steel shot:



If you dont see that mark on the barrel flats, then the gun is not proofed for steel shot.

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[quote=Ted Schefelbein]

"Think disc set strikes. When one breaks, you put another in, in the cab of the truck, using a Zippo for light, if needed"

That I would like to see!

Having removed the striker disc from a couple of guns that have been shot a bit I can tell you that it's been my experience that they are usually difficult to remove & Birmingham trained gunsmith Jack Rowe has mentioned that his method is to set the action in a heavy bench vise & put the striker removal bit in an old fashioned drill brace to get enough leverage to get them out so I'm not the only person that feels that way.

They don't make striker disc removal tools so you can use a 3/8" drive ratchet or "T" handle on them for no reason!

I'm not opposed to disc set strikers but I really don't think they make broken strikers an easy field repair nor do I think strikers integral with the hammers break all that frequently. If they did that design wouldn't have been used on most A&D designs including the Winchester 21, A.H.Fox & Parker.

If you insist on having disc set strikers on a boxlock you eliminate a whole lot of very nice guns as prospects.

No argument though that it's easier cheaper to replace a broken striker on the disc set design than the integral design if it does happen but it has never happened to me or any one I know.

I do however know of 2 sidelock guns with disc set striker that broke their hammers (one a Purdey & one an AYA) but that has not kept me from owning guns with disc set strikers.







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Originally Posted By: Kyrie
Originally Posted By: Tim Cartmell

---snip
The new AyA shotguns are steel shot proofed as standard
Snip---


Be very careful with this. Here is the proof mark for guns that have been proofed for steel shot:


If you dont see that mark on the barrel flats, then the gun is not proofed for steel shot.


True, but have you ever seen a modern Spanish shotgun with reasonably open chokes (modified or less) develop a barrel bulge from shooting steel?

Personally, I haven't, and I've put a fair amount of steel through post-War Spanish guns, none of which were/are proofed for steel.

If I were looking at a new gun, I would want it with a steel proof just because it's an option. But with a used gun I wouldn't necessarily let the lack of a steel proof scare me off.

Last edited by calebg; 05/25/14 10:57 AM.
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Looking through my most recent AyA catalogue (2010) I note that at that time they had a USD41 surcharge for steel proofing.

Steel proofing may be standard now but I imagine that the proof is for steel shot loaded to CIP standards, not SAAMI




Originally Posted By: Kyrie
Originally Posted By: Tim Cartmell

---snip
The new AyA shotguns are steel shot proofed as standard
Snip---


Be very careful with this. Here is the proof mark for guns that have been proofed for steel shot:



If you dont see that mark on the barrel flats, then the gun is not proofed for steel shot.

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Originally Posted By: Brittany Man
[quote=Ted Schefelbein]

"Think disc set strikes. When one breaks, you put another in, in the cab of the truck, using a Zippo for light, if needed"

That I would like to see!

Having removed the striker disc from a couple of guns that have been shot a bit I can tell you that it's been my experience that they are usually difficult to remove & Birmingham trained gunsmith Jack Rowe has mentioned that his method is to set the action in a heavy bench vise & put the striker removal bit in an old fashioned drill brace to get enough leverage to get them out so I'm not the only person that feels that way.

They don't make striker disc removal tools so you can use a 3/8" drive ratchet or "T" handle on them for no reason!

I'm not opposed to disc set strikers but I really don't think they make broken strikers an easy field repair nor do I think strikers integral with the hammers break all that frequently. If they did that design wouldn't have been used on most A&D designs including the Winchester 21, A.H.Fox & Parker.

If you insist on having disc set strikers on a boxlock you eliminate a whole lot of very nice guns as prospects.

No argument though that it's easier cheaper to replace a broken striker on the disc set design than the integral design if it does happen but it has never happened to me or any one I know.

I do however know of 2 sidelock guns with disc set striker that broke their hammers (one a Purdey & one an AYA) but that has not kept me from owning guns with disc set strikers.








It is a very easy task on my Uggy. Cole Haugh made the tool for my gun, no ratchet adapter is needed-hell, the wood he put on the tool is nicer than the wood on the gun!
Mine is a boxlock, and if a hammer actually broke, I'd need much more in the way of tooling to fix it than a sidelock gun would. But, I haven't noticed the hammers to be especially prone to problems in boxlocks.
I have seen disk set strikers with only two holes for the pins, and I imagine that would be more problematic than those with three pins.
They don't need to be torqued all that tight, if the gun needs to go in a vise, that seems like overkill.

Best,
Ted

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Originally Posted By: Kyrie
Originally Posted By: Tim Cartmell

---snip
The new AyA shotguns are steel shot proofed as standard
Snip---


Be very careful with this. Here is the proof mark for guns that have been proofed for steel shot:



If you dont see that mark on the barrel flats, then the gun is not proofed for steel shot.


Good point Kyrie. There could still be some old new shotgun inventory floating around, especially through Cabelas. As of 2011, AyA was steel shot proofing their guns as standard. The shotguns will have the fluer de lis mark stamp as shown.

Tim

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Originally Posted By: calebg

Snip---
True, but have you ever seen a modern Spanish shotgun with reasonably open chokes (modified or less) develop a barrel bulge from shooting steel?
---snip


No offense, but youre assuming that all modern Spanish shotguns are the same they arent. See my above post concerning purpose built shotguns.

Ive seen current production Spanish light game guns with bulged barrels at the chokes from shooting heavy loads of lead shot. Ive seen current production Spanish light game guns with stocks damaged/broken from shooting shells that produce recoil that is excessive in a light game gun.

Originally Posted By: calebg

Personally, I haven't, and I've put a fair amount of steel through post-War Spanish guns, none of which were/are proofed for steel.


Ive seen a lot of people run red lights or stop signs without getting hit. Lets not confuse being lucky with being safe.

Originally Posted By: calebg

If I were looking at a new gun, I would want it with a steel proof just because it's an option. But with a used gun I wouldn't necessarily let the lack of a steel proof scare me off.

A lot of the inexpensive Spanish box lock guns were built as medium game guns and are stoutly built. Open up the chokes so the tightest is mod or less and they will take a lot of abuse before the wheels come off.

Im not here to tell anyone what to do or not do were all adults. That said, Id like people to be able to make informed decisions but ultimately thats optional.

Your guns, your risk, your call.

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Originally Posted By: Kyrie

Your guns, your risk, your call.


Fair. We all choose our risk tolerance and hopefully use some basic sense in doing so.

With the sort of modern, overbuilt Spanish guns the OP is considering (Aya #4, Uggie), I don't think there's a big risk to using steel in them as long as the chokes are open. I say that mainly because I've done it with several different guns, have seen a number of friends do it, and not one of us has ever had an issue.

Now, I haven't done it with every gun in existence, and it's entirely possible and maybe even likely that some gun of this type, somewhere, will bulge with steel. So, some risk probably does exist.

Is that risk enough to keep me from doing it? No, because my experience tells me that the risk is small.

Someone else may have very, very little tolerance for risk though, and maybe it should keep them from doing it.

Like you say, everyone has to choose his level of risk and behave accordingly.

Last edited by calebg; 05/26/14 10:49 AM.
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Right now steel isn't a concern, although I worry that it won't be all of our problem some day...

I am an open choke kind of a guy. I joke that if you are missing you have too much choke, and if you are then losing wounded birds you need a better dog.

So many options, and I have even been PM'ed a few good deals, wish I could jump on them all. I should be able to shoulder (and maybe shoot) a gun or two like I am looking for at Hausmann's two weekends from now, so I guess I will wait to get a little more hands on before buying anything.

CHAZ



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