doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Baker Shotgun History Question (Pre Folsum)

Hmmmm... Seems as though my phone's "auto-correct" resulted in the term "sidekick" to be used instead of "sidelock". Sorry about that!

Both designs are called "sidelock", the earlier is a 3 piece design and the later is the 4 piece.

Thanks.

A pic of the "Draw Bolt" would be great, if possible. I'm still trying to get straight why the pics of the "late B Grade" and the Batavia Leader (and other Batavia and Paragon guns) look the same, in having the four piece rebounding lock.

I've see the "Block Safety" print that was in one of the articles on your website. When we pull the plates for an extensive cleaning we'll be able to tell then..

On all the advertising listed on your website, it appears that all the hammerless sidelocks have the four piece type.

Did the lock design (four piece)change at all after Folsom bought Baker? (or before) When was the "Draw Bolt" feature discontinued? Did Hollenbeck design the four piece lock?

Ken

None of mine fit this description. the lug is straight and is flush at the outside bottom of the receiver.

remember the Bativa line were the "Economy" models. thet didn't have as fancy wood, checkering patterns & the engraving of the higher grades had nothing to do with the design of the locks. They also lacked the block safety & the draw bolt. The normal safety simply blocked the triggers from being pulled. The Block Safety was an extra safety which in the event the hammer should be jarred off without the trigger having been pulled prevented the hammer from striking the firing pin.
I am sorry that when you mentioned the bolt in the barrel lug, I failed to note it was spring loaded, & was thinking of the Draw Bolt. As others have pointed out this was a bolt which went crosswise through the barrel lug & fitted into recessses in the frame. This bolt was to help absorb the axial thrust upon firing & take part of the load from the hinge pin.
Many English & European guns having double underbolts have the front face of the rear lug cut on a radius centered on the hinge pin & rotate into a matching radius on a cross member of the frame for the same purpose.
Likewise I have never heard of a Batavia model baker having either the Block safety or the Draw Bolt. Understand that in this context Batavia has nothing to do with where it was built, but is the model line of guns referred to as Batavia's. Higher graded guns were built in Batavia which did have both the Block safety & the Draw Bolt.

Here's a couple pics I took this evening of my B grade showing the draw block through the barrel lug and the recess that it mates with in the action flats.

Excellent, I suggest you post those on your site, it's a piece of info I've not seen anywhere else. Especially if you post similar pics of a Batavia gun for comparison. Posting pics of the different cocking rod configurations would be good as well. Yours has the same type as my cousin's, his is the spring loaded one I mentioned. Here's a few more questions.

Does your gun have the three piece or the four piece lock? I can't tell by the pics.

Was there any relationship between the Draw Bolt and the action type? Were they used on the four piece lock as well as on the three piece? Was it only based on grade? Was it present on the higher grade Folsom guns?

It appears that the four piece lock was used in the later Folsom guns. What exactly changed around 1908, as far as the action? Was the cross bolt dropped then but the basic lock design (four piece) remained the same? On the Baker site, the Folsom guns have the same three-pin pattern..

Thanks
Ken

The B grade pictured is a 1897-98 gun and so it has the older 3-piece lockplate design. There are photos of the shotgun on the Baker Collectors website that show the action from different angles.

The draw bolt was used on all guns in the Baker line regardless of whether it was the earlier lock design or the later 4 piece design. One exception is a later Paragon that came out in 1909... I've never seen any of the Model Nineteen Nine shotguns, but they reportedly did not have the draw bolt and instead used a second bolting feature running through the rib extension. I used to have a Folsom made Paragon and it did not have the draw bolt, but it incorporated a 2nd bolt that ran through the rib extension. That's the only Folsom Baker I have experience with.

I believe all of the Folsom guns had the 4 piece lock design. My Folsom Paragon had a slightly different shape to the lockplates, but still used the same mechanism.

The design change for the Model Nineteen Nine Paragon guns added a 2nd bolt that rotated vertically through the rib extension and was shaped to pull back and down on the extension. They eliminated the draw bolt because of this new way of securely closing the action. The cocking mechanism also changed to a roller cocking design I believe.

Got it, I missed the photo of the B Grade with the cross piece, it was before you guys explained what I should be looking for. Thanks to you and all you others who have contributed, its been a great learning experience...
Ken

My B grade is a bit different

Marvelous gun, from now on I'll be able to tell the higher grades from the Batavia types. Now, if I can only run across one. Ah, if one could only "turn back the clock" about 20 years or so...

Thanks
Ken