doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Baker Shotgun History Question (Pre Folsum)

Got it, I overlooked that fact that SAC never produced sidelocks. And yes, now I understand that SAC had no connection to SF&G, other than through Hollenbeck.

I wasn't disputing the facts Researcher cited, but attempting to confirm that I understood them. The significance that SAC never made a sidelock is a good example.

I think that this is because it is a pre Folsom gun. BG&F introduced the name "Batavia" several years before Folsom bought them. This is what I ran into about Baker's when I researched them around 20 years ago. Back then, they were dismissed as "Crescents", probably because of the Folsom association. If not, the information available was based on the later Folsom guns, with little or no distinction made between them and the earlier Hollenbeck/Draw Bolt actions. I'd figure that it was because of marketing/product recognition that Folsom continued to use the word "Batavia" in their model names, even though they had moved production to Norwich. This continues today, in pubs like "The Standard Catalog of Firearms".

If anyone has any additional corrections or additions, please post them.

The Baker site lists the "Batavia" line beginning in 1903, and lists the Batavia Leader serial numbers from 75,000 to about 106,000. I suspect that this includes all Bakers/Batavias, not just the leader. If it did, than would mean that Baker made 31,000 Batavia Leaders in around five years or so.

Now for the hard part. My cousins gun falls within the Batavia serial number range, yet it clearly has the Block Safety as well as the barrel lug bolt, (draw block) both reportedly eliminated from the Batavia series. Pretty confusing. One hypothetical could be that the "New Era" gun was made according to the desires of the retailer, in this case probably "The Fair", which perhaps desired the pre Batavia type of lock. A better explanation is that the Batavia actions were not changed until 1908, when the line was expanded, this would explain the info listed in Daryl Hallquist's post when he said the action (Hollenbeck's) was used until around 1909.

Really, the most significant thing is to recognize that the "Batavia Leader" was of the same quality of the earlier Grade A & B guns, rather than lumping it in with the newer Batavias (post 1908) when the actions as well as the models changed. Since it was made until 1919, was the 1908 time frame the point when they changed the action and started using steel barrels? If so, it essentially became a different gun.

So, it appears that many significant changes were made many years before Folsom bought BG&F, now, using pre 1908 as a term as well as pre Folsum may be appropriate.

All this stuff may seem a little boring and confusing to some, yet to me I find unraveling a puzzle like this to be fascinating.

Maybe I haven't read things correctly, but a couple of points you mentioned in your initial post makes me think there is some misunderstanding about the shotgun.

You mention the 3 position safety and that you've seen it referred to as the "Block Safety". The 3 position safety was used on the Batavia line guns but they also used a 2 position safety on guns in that same timeframe (I have a mid-production Batavia Special with that safety, but also have an earlier production Leader that employs a 2 position safety). However, the 3 position safety does not indicate the gun has the hammer block safety that was used on the Baker line of shotguns (my Special has that safety but not the hammer block mechanism).

You also mention the bolt through the barrel lug as being "spring loaded". The draw bolt that was used on the Baker line of guns was simply a tool steel block fitted through the barrel lug and mated into a recess in the water table. There was no spring or moving mechanism used for this feature. Is it possible that you're referring to the small pin that slides through the barrel lug parallel to the barrels and engages the cocking lever? Some of these were spring loaded and some simply slid freely depending on year of production.

Sorry if I've misunderstood your descriptions, but hoping to help clear up confusion where I can.

Excellent, thanks, these are the answers I'm looking for. Sometimes you just have to throw out incorrect assumptions in order to get the correct answers.

So, this begs the next few questions: Since it's the three position safety, how do I tell if it's the "Block Safety".

As far as the action, your description is correct, and the pin is spring loaded. This gun's pin profile is the same as the Batavia Leader's on the photo section of the Baker website. I think of the three pin pattern in the center kind of as "Orion's Belt", its easier to remember that way. The pin pattern is different from the pictures of the early A and B grades, but is like the Paragon 518 and the higher model number Paragons. So, how do I tell if this is a Hollenbeck designed action with a draw bolt, or the later, simplified action? Any chance to linking to pictures?

Thanks
Ken

I have bakers that have a cocking lever that is spring loaded and extends through the barrel lugs. I have bakers that have a cocking lever that is mounted in an inlet on the side of the rear barrel lug. I was informed that the first design is older than the second one that has the mounted lever. Both have the same lock design.

Thanks. Great. Do your guns have the "Draw Bolt"? That's what I'm concentrating on now, how to tell the different actions from each other. Do your guns have the "Orion's Belt" pin pattern or the earlier A and B patterns? There are pics of a "Late B Grade" with the "Orion's Belt" pattern as well..

Here's the link to the Baker photos..

http://www.bakercollectors.com/index.php?p=1_10_Photos

Thanks
Ken

Since it's a gun that was produced in the Batavia line I will go out on a limb and say that I can pretty much guarantee that it doesn't have the hammer block safety. However, as with most turn of century firearms... Never say never! You can pull a side plate and easily tell for sure. I can direct you to some pictures later this evening once I'm home and not trying to answer from my cell phone.

The design of lock that you see on the earlier Baker guns was used until right around 1899-1900 if I remember correctly. The sidelock design was changed to a 4 piece rebounding lock at that point... This is the sidelock with the 3 pins displayed that you most commonly see. This lock was used on both the Baker guns and Batavia guns. There was really no difference in the design of the lock between the two lines.

Super! Pictures would be great. Does this later "Four piece rebounding lock" design (from the earlier "Sidelock") include the "Draw Bolt" folks refer to, or am I on the wrong track? Is this still a Hollenbeck design?

All of this info is depressing me. Considering that 20 years ago I passed on several nice ones. As I mentioned before, they had been equated to or described as "Crescents" in much of the available info..

Thanks
Ken

No, the draw bolt was used on the Baker line of guns from the first of the hammerless models. It really doesn't have anything to do with the design of the sidelock at all.

The draw bolt is simply a rectangular piece of steel that extends out both sides of the barrel lug and runs perpendicular to the barrels... so looking at the bottom of the barrels the barrel lug and the draw bolt form the shape of a plus (+), but with the draw bolt being smaller in size than the lug. The surface of the draw bolt that faces the breech end of the barrels is tapered slightly. When the barrels are fitted and closed to the action, this draw bolt fits down into a recess in the watertable.