March
S M T W T F S
1 2
3 4 5 6 7 8 9
10 11 12 13 14 15 16
17 18 19 20 21 22 23
24 25 26 27 28 29 30
31
Who's Online Now
4 members (LRF, bsteele, David Williamson, Ted Schefelbein), 826 guests, and 5 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Statistics
Forums10
Topics38,374
Posts544,016
Members14,391
Most Online1,258
Mar 29th, 2024
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
#358904 02/25/14 08:51 PM
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 1,113
Likes: 26
Vol423 Offline OP
Sidelock
**
OP Offline
Sidelock
**

Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 1,113
Likes: 26
What does 108/49 mean on the bottom of a 9.3X74R drilling barrel? No makers name but most likely postwar German.

Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 246
Likes: 2
Sidelock
**
Offline
Sidelock
**

Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 246
Likes: 2
108.49 is an old gauge number. According to the German 1892 proof tables it stands for a bore or land (NOT groove or bullet!) diameter between 8.89 mm = .350" and 9.14 mm = .360" at the proofhouse. These gauge numbers went out of general use in 1911 (Zella-Mehlis proofhouse)to 1912 (Suhl). So your drilling was most likely made pre-WW1. There should be other regular proofmarks too, eagle, crown/B, crown/U, crown/G. I suspect your drilling is in 9.3x72R instead of 9.3x74R.

Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 4,445
Likes: 201
Sidelock
**
Offline
Sidelock
**

Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 4,445
Likes: 201
Vol,
I would guess that you know what your drilling is chambered for now, but I agree with kuduae that one so marked would more than likely have started out as a 9.3x72R(or one of the other 9.3s based on the 360 case).If this is the case, I would be hesitant to use 9.3x74R ammo.The older 9.3s have pretty variable groove diameters, but the 9.3x74Rs were fairly consistant.If the groove diameter is much below .365(I have found more X72s .362-364" than others)I would check further.If larger, it is still not sure,because a few X72Rs went to .368-375".When Norma stopped making 9.3x72R years ago, but continued X74R, some American gunsmiths rechambered to X74R.This was not a good idea. Another possibility is some 9.3x72R S&S would chamber 9.3x74R with some interference that raised pressures(I have personal experience with this),but this isn't likely unless the drilling is a Sauer.This is worth the time to check.
Mike

Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 246
Likes: 2
Sidelock
**
Offline
Sidelock
**

Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 246
Likes: 2
Rechambering an old drilling from 9.3x72R to 9.3x74R is about as bright an idea as rechambering an equally old Smith & Wesson .38 Special Military & Police to take the .357 Magnum. The CIP max pressure for the x72 is 2000 bar, while the x74 allows for 3400 bar.

Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 1,113
Likes: 26
Vol423 Offline OP
Sidelock
**
OP Offline
Sidelock
**

Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 1,113
Likes: 26
The drilling has a bold 9.3X74R marked on the side of the lugs. And it had a set of swing mounts installed, and chambers lengthened by JJ at Champlians. I 'll get more photos and post them. I thought those marks were early bore dimensions, so I was a little dubious.

Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 4,445
Likes: 201
Sidelock
**
Offline
Sidelock
**

Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 4,445
Likes: 201
Vol,
Since you already know who rechambered the drilling, that is no longer a question.Just for info, the fact that it was marked on the side of the lug would be a dead giveaway that something had been done to it at a pretty late date.I'm not going to sharpshoot what someone else did, but note that rechambering from X72R to X74R is considerably more than lengthing the chamber.In addition to the difference in pressures Kuduae noted, there is a considerable difference in head diameters(except for the rare 9.3x72R S&S)between the 72mm and 74mm cartridges.The 72mm is about .427" but the 74mm is about .465"in head dia.This means the chamberwall thickness would be a good bit thinner in the 74mm chamber.To save weight rifle barrels in this age drilling were usually made only as thick as necessary for the original cartridge,and may be too small for more modern cartridges.I can't support rechambering 9.3x72R rifles, except from older versions to the normalized version, which only removes an insignificant amount of metal.I don't reccommend you cut the drilling up, but you should at least handload cartridges appropriate for the 9.3x72R and do not use factory 9,3x74R ammo.
Mike

Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 1,113
Likes: 26
Vol423 Offline OP
Sidelock
**
OP Offline
Sidelock
**

Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 1,113
Likes: 26
Below is a photo of the caliber marking. The double line engraving indicates to me also of a later marking. There is also a link to the six or seven photos he sent of the proofs. From the styling of the gun it looks pretty early to me also. According to the owner, JJ opened the chambers to 2-3/4" and blessed the use of any modern ammo of that size. JJ is the one who confirmed the chambering and put the caliber marking over the chamber.

http://s396.photobucket.com/user/Vol423/slideshow/12ga%20and%2093%20by%2074%20drilling

Last edited by Vol423; 02/27/14 08:15 PM.
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 4,445
Likes: 201
Sidelock
**
Offline
Sidelock
**

Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 4,445
Likes: 201
Vol423,
The form of the pictured drilling is stronger than a lot of drillings made during the same time period, and it is possible that it was originally chambered for any one of the cartridges discussed( 9.3x72R,9.3x74R,9.3X72R S&S)as none of them were introduced outside the time period of the drilling.Also,I wouldn't be overly concerned about the shotgun chambers being opened to 2 3/4"in a nitro proofed drilling of this form.I don't know who this JJ person is and I can't say my opinion is any better than his, in general, and especially of a drilling I haven't seen, but he has closely inspected.The photos you provided have relieved a lot of my concerns; but in the end, if it's your drilling, it's your decision.The "double line"engraving of the caliber marking is from an engraving machine like those used to engrave plaques,etc.so is "new".
Mike

Last edited by Der Ami; 02/28/14 12:18 PM.
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 246
Likes: 2
Sidelock
**
Offline
Sidelock
**

Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 246
Likes: 2
This drilling looks a lot like an early Sauer & Sohn, Suhl, predecessor of their models 30,32 to me. One of your photobucket pics seems to show a single Sauer trademark crown? If 148383 is a Sauer serial number, it too dates the gun to 1912. The gun seems to be heavily reworked and restocked to me, perhaps the original signatures were scrubbed off in the "restoration"? If it is a S&S product, the original chambering may have been indeed the proprietary 9.3x72R S&S Mike mentioned. But this S&S number was a blackpowder, lead bullet cartridge too, so without a proper reproof I would not use full power 9.3x74R factory loads in it. The problem here is not chamber wall thickness. Up to the 1920s the Suhl gunmakers used hi-temp brass brazing to assemble the chamber area of the barrels. This was ok for bp pressure cartridges, but sometimes the steel in the critical chamber area was "burned" and brittle. This was the reason for the design of such drilling cartridges like the 8x57R 360, 8x58R S&S, 8x72R Brenneke. For the innocent customer the "8mm" designations sounded the same as the then modern high power 8x57I or IR cartridges, but those "drilling" numbers were loaded to much lower pressures and ballistics. I have seen the sorry remains of an old drilling that was post-1990 rebored, rerifled and rechambered in Suhl from 6,5x58R S&S to 8x57IRS. The wall thicknesses appeared to be ok to all persons involved, the master gunsmith, the master barrelmaker and the proofhouse officials. At the proofhouse, on firing the prescribed 8x57IRS proofload, the chamber area blew apart. The breaks looked like coarse textured broken cast iron. It's the same problem like that with the low-numbered Springfields of the same time span: Most of them take lots of use and abuse, but some are brittle and may shatter if overstressed even slightly.

Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 1,113
Likes: 26
Vol423 Offline OP
Sidelock
**
OP Offline
Sidelock
**

Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 1,113
Likes: 26
Thanks all. Ultimately I decided not to take the gun in trade as I didn't want the liability. You can find the gun on Gunbroker at a greatly inflated price.


Link Copied to Clipboard

doublegunshop.com home | Welcome | Sponsors & Advertisers | DoubleGun Rack | Doublegun Book Rack

Order or request info | Other Useful Information

Updated every minute of everyday!


Copyright (c) 1993 - 2024 doublegunshop.com. All rights reserved. doublegunshop.com - Bloomfield, NY 14469. USA These materials are provided by doublegunshop.com as a service to its customers and may be used for informational purposes only. doublegunshop.com assumes no responsibility for errors or omissions in these materials. THESE MATERIALS ARE PROVIDED "AS IS" WITHOUT WARRANTY OF ANY KIND, EITHER EXPRESS OR IMPLIED, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, THE IMPLIED WARRANTIES OF MERCHANT-ABILITY, FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE, OR NON-INFRINGEMENT. doublegunshop.com further does not warrant the accuracy or completeness of the information, text, graphics, links or other items contained within these materials. doublegunshop.com shall not be liable for any special, indirect, incidental, or consequential damages, including without limitation, lost revenues or lost profits, which may result from the use of these materials. doublegunshop.com may make changes to these materials, or to the products described therein, at any time without notice. doublegunshop.com makes no commitment to update the information contained herein. This is a public un-moderated forum participate at your own risk.

Note: The posting of Copyrighted material on this forum is prohibited without prior written consent of the Copyright holder. For specifics on Copyright Law and restrictions refer to: http://www.copyright.gov/laws/ - doublegunshop.com will not monitor nor will they be held liable for copyright violations presented on the BBS which is an open and un-moderated public forum.

Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5
(Release build 20201027)
Responsive Width:

PHP: 7.0.33-0+deb9u11+hw1 Page Time: 0.085s Queries: 35 (0.055s) Memory: 0.8429 MB (Peak: 1.8988 MB) Data Comp: Off Server Time: 2024-03-29 11:22:42 UTC
Valid HTML 5 and Valid CSS