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Tamid #355557 01/29/14 10:20 PM
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Eightbore, you have a PM.

Tamid #355571 01/29/14 11:47 PM
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I read something about a rule that was created in the early 1900s that limits gun weight to a maximum of eight pounds. Is that still a rule?



I am glad to be here.
Tamid #355576 01/30/14 12:10 AM
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I would like to know how early century pigeon shoots were set up. I understand there was a 30 yd circle and a shooter and thrower but after that my information is quite vague. There was a thread on the forum but I think it is beyond a year and I can not access it.

I do believe the Pigeon/Live Bird game originated in Great Britain during the percussion era. Charles Lancaster used a percussion tube lock percussion system and his personal gun was sold here in the USA in the past year or so. THere is a photo of this rifle on one like it in Donald Dallas book 'The British Sporting Gun and Rifle' p.54. stating "4 bore tubelock live pigeon percussion gun no. 1675 of 1849... ...". The game started off as a single barrel game and transitioned into the double gun game. These single and later double guns of the percussion era are noticeable by the 'lack' of a ramrod provision. I am fortunate enough to own a wonderful Thomas Turner percussion 4 bore single pigeon gun (8 pounds - these are definitely not Punt guns!) with an amazing 30" damascus barrel pattern. No choke, but it will cover pattern beautifully at 30 yds using a square load of 5drams of BP and 2oz shot.
The original ring was oval in shape with 5 traps in the center spaced apart, the bird could come out in any 360 degree direction. The best birds (hardest to kill) were Blue Rock Pigeons from the cost of the Jersey Islands in GB, I believe. This 'Blue Rock' name continues today with clay target/pigeons.
Further reading in the book states the 'Winner of the London Field Gun Trials in 1858 and 1859' written by J. Walsh (Stonehenge) ... and it mentions the trials were held at the "Hornsey House, live pigeon venue... ... where the breech-loader emerged as EQUAL to the muzzle-loader..."
Rick

Tamid #355615 01/30/14 10:36 AM
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Here you go Mike. Live Bird and Inanimate Target shooters commonly used 'Boots'

1894 Chas. Godfrey New York courtesy of Dave Noreen



http://www.la84foundation.org/SportsLibrary/SportingLife/1898/VOL_30_NO_24/SL3024020.pdf
John L. Lequin. secretary of the Interstate Association, writes us under date of Feb. 25 1898 as follows:
"We have received inquiries from most all directions recently from a number of shooters who are probably desirous of entering the Grand American Handicap next month, concerning the weight of guns, and whether the handhold and recoil pad will be counted as a part of the gun when weighed. The subject has been placed before the Tournament Committee of the association, which committee has decided that the guns will be weighed naked.
Kindly note, and make this public through your paper at your earliest opportunity and greatly oblige."

The Baker Gun Quarterly, Volume 5, No. 3, May 1900 had an article on the weight of Trap/Pigeon guns used by Capt. A.W. Money (8 pounds - Money used a Greener, Smith, and Parker), C.W. Budd (7 pounds 14 ounce Parker), H.D. Bates (7 pounds 13 ounces), R.O. Heikes (7 pounds 15 ounce Parker but after the GAH at Live Birds he went back to his Remington hammerless and won the 1st GAH at Targets), J.S. Fanning (7 pounds 15 ounce Smith), W.R. Crosby (7 pounds 12 ounce Baker), and Col. A.G. Courtney (7 pounds 14 ounce Remington CEO).

Tamid #355619 01/30/14 10:45 AM
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Woolfolk Henderson won the 1914 GAH with a 98x100 from 22 yards, the Amateur Championship of U.S. with a 99x100 from 16 yds, and the Amateur Doubles Championship of the U.S. with 90x100 from 16 yds. Shown here wearing a glove on his left hand and a boot on his Parker



Rolla Heikes patented a 'Hand Protector' in 1889




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Originally Posted By: AmarilloMike
I read something about a rule that was created in the early 1900s that limits gun weight to a maximum of eight pounds. Is that still a rule?


There is no weight rule enforced today in flyer shooting, Mike. There are a few rules for the guns and ammo. Main thing is that ammunition is limited to shot size no larger than 7 1/2, and a max payload of 1 1/4 oz. Seems to be sort of split between 7 1/2s and 8s, with many shooters using 8s in the first barrel and 7 1/2s in the second, particularly at the 22 yard line. Some go to two loads of 7 1/2s after running a couple of rings straight and having to move back. There have been a few very successful pigeon shooters that would even use 9s on the first shot. Plated shot is common, in the belief (or, with the proof) that it improves patterns. As far as weight goes, IMO there must be a balance between having enough weight to handle the 1 1/4 oz. loads and being able to get off a quick second shot, and how quick the gun moves to the bird for you. I've never seen a highly successful flyer shooter that used a straight gripped buttstock. Not saying there aren't any, I am just not aware of them. Pistol grips help handle recoil much better for most people, so that the bird is acquired quickly for the second shot, which is crucial.

No rules on chokes, action types, barrel length, etc.

SRH


May God bless America and those who defend her.
Tamid #355628 01/30/14 11:11 AM
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As some of you may know, Live Pigeon Shooting was Olympic for one time:
Paris 1900, 300 Doves fall from the sky. The one and only Olympic Champion was
Leon de Lunden from Belgium who shot 21 with only 2 failed!

I found a story about the contest in Monte Carlo about 1910 and there is said (sorry, own translation in poor english):

It's not too difficult to hit the doves, but the real problem is, you have to hit them fast, because they have to fall down within the correct zone. If not, the shot doesn't count.

There were about 250 participiants who paid 300 Francs = 75,000 Franc - the winner gets 25,000 in cash plus an object of about 10,000. The second gets 30%, the third 25% and so on. But the main attraction for the visitors is making some bets.

The winner and the second usual made an agreement on their prizes and shared it with each other. Only for the prize of honour they finally compete.

there is a reprint of a book about (I don't know it yet):

Live Trap Pigeon And Glass Ball Shooting


Michael Yardley also wrote one: "CLAY SHOOTING: A HISTORY"

Of course there were also women involved:

Monte Carlo:



and on the Olympics with hand protectors:



It was a great time for shooting in those days, I think!

Gunwolf



Last edited by Gunwolf; 01/30/14 11:13 AM.
Tamid #355630 01/30/14 11:24 AM
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Live Bird shooting was a non-Olympic 'demonstration' event, once and only, at the 1900 Olympics. A prize purse of 20,000 Francs was awarded to the winners, though the top four finishers agreed to split the winnings.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_at_the_1900_Summer_Olympics

Later image of the Gold Medal winner, Léon de Lunden of Belgium, who won 5000 francs (about $20,000 at the time!!)




Inanimate Targets were used at the 1912 Stockholm Olympics, and the U.S. team took the Gold Medal:
Charles W. Billings, Ralph Lewis Spotts, John H. Hendrickson, James R. Graham (on 3rd station), Edward Francis Gleason, and Frank Hall



The individual Gold was by Jay Graham, using a Remington PUMP (oh the shame!! wink )




Last edited by Drew Hause; 01/30/14 11:57 AM.
Tamid #355631 01/30/14 11:26 AM
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Inanimate - not alive…!!!!! you can do that with a pump! ;-)

Gunwolf

Tamid #355632 01/30/14 11:27 AM
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Stan and Drew thank you for answering all my questions.



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