doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Who made the actions (British)

Some miscellaneous thoughts on forging -

In 2012, I spent some time with Gottfried Prechtl at his home/business in Birkenau, Germany. For the side by side guys - he makes Mauser bolt-actions. During dinner, he explained that
his machining time to produce an action, bolt and bottom metal is 89 hours. That process reduces ("making chips" as he described it) a 14.5 kilo piece of metal 1350 grams. A century plus ago, using forgings, Prechtl said Mauser could do the same thing in 50 hours.

I believe that Alexander Henry used forgings for at least some his falling block single-shot rifles (Patent No.1071 of 1865). When I was collecting single-shots, I had the occasion to handle two of those forgings.

One post suggested that William Powell & Son may have forged their actions. Powell's Patent No.1163 of 1864 (the lift-up lever) has been the subject of my attention for some years. Early Powell cartridge guns generally used Smith, Brazier or "Lefaucheux" actions. Powell hammer and A&D lifter actions are scaled - 12-b smaller than 10-b, etc. From c.1874, Powell used many Westley Richards related patents such as the dolls-head extension, Deeley and Anson forend bolts, Deeley ejectors, Anson safeties as well as A&D patent actions. The only surviving Powell records are the serial number and day books. Thus, we'll never know for sure but Westley Richards (or their source) may have been Powell's source.

Comments on the Birmingham Trade.
Most of the forgings used by the English gun trade came from Forge shops located in the Black Country towns, adjacent to Birmingham. For example; Dudley, Halesowen, WestBromwich, Wolverhampton, Wednesbury & Cradley Heath. Industry located in these towns were also major suppliers of gun locks and barrels to the English gun trade.
By the 1950s Webley and Scott were the principal supplier of,"In the White," A&D actions to the British trade trade.
There were how ever at least two companies located in the Birmingham Gun Quarter that specialised in making Machined actions "In the White" for the trade. Namely Phillipson and Nephew and J.Astbury. By comparison to Webley their production would have been small scale and was perhaps focused on the side lock action.
Companies such as S.Wright and Son, also located in Birmingham, made actions and complete guns for companies such as Churchill[Box locks],Rodda, Hilsdon, Radcliff, Gallyon and a host of other well known names.
W&C.Scott, W.W.Greener, B.S.A. Westley Richards all had in house capability to manufacture actions for their own guns and guns of others.
In the 1970's I visited A.A.Brown and at that time they were extremely proud of the fact that despite their limited production they made all major components of their fine guns in house.

Steve, interesting to read the calculations, 89 hours of "making chips" to go from 14 kilos to 1. In getting estimates for my prototype, which in some parts is more intricate than a Mauser action, the estimate of CNC machine time was one 8 hour shift to go from a cylindrical billet to the finished product.

As new technology becomes more widely available more processes are brought inhouse, a look at Boxall and Edminston's site shows just how much of the "heavy lifting" is now centralised in one shop.

Ironic that new technology will make the question "who made it" obsolete!

Gunmaking is a fascinating business.

Double posting deleted

I hope I've not missed a name while I was reading through the posts here but didn't Holloway manufacture actions for the trade .?
I'd guess that it's an unclear subject too, as some makers had made their own actions at one point but opted to buy in at other times.
There's also the possibility of a firm buying in barrelled actions or complete guns for their cheaper models but still making their best guns in house.

Spot on Roy

I have a WJ Jeffrey BLNE wildfowler made in 1937. According to Douglas Tate's book, guns sold under the Jeffrey name were made by Leonard. Did Leonard make their own actions, or did they contract from the Trade for the bits? I have not had the gun apart, did Leonard have any identifiers marked on parts?

Dickson built the round-action completely in house up to 1963 the last one leaving the workshop on 26th July at a cost of �527 10s. A work diary belonging to John Dickson reveals that all the skills were in house to build the guns - stockers, barrel and lock makers, actioners and even an engraver in the early years but case making was outsourced to a specialist in Edinburgh.

By 1963 the skilled workforce was retired and the demand was just not there for such an expensive product.

Since then Dicksons have used a number of specialist out workers to complete round-action orders, the next foray being with their former employee, David McKay Brown who built three round-actions (on Phillipson machinings, he had his own workforce to complete the rest)for them in 1985. The next set of round-action actions were machined up by Verenigde Geweermaker in Holland (now the new Lebeau Corrally?). Starting with No. 8000 in 1989, the guns were finished in the UK, but the relationship was short lived due to quality issues.

Since then the small production has been mixed between the team Dicksons have in Dunkeld and a number of specialist out workers. 'Pugwash' on this board has even actioned a few. The foray of Dicksons into the modern O/U world was also short lived, five guns being 'built' by Rizzini in Italy and finished in the UK between 2008 and 2010. The cost to built them far outstripped the retail cost, never again they said!

As for boxlocks, the records indicate the 4 digit serial number guns were a mix of built in house (when round-action orders were slow) and guns made up by Webley, S. Wright, Holloway etc. Most of the names mentioned in this thread as 'guns in the white' suppliers.

The five digit serial number boxlocks were completely made by suppliers in Birmingham. The first two digits telling you the supplier, the third digit being the model and the last two digits being the sequential order number. For example, if you own a boxlock that is numbered 146XX, it will be a 3in chambered heavy gun with 30in barrels. Or 180XX will be a 2in chambered lightweight gun with 27in barrels.

Fletchedpair

Nice post re the Dickson, my favorite British SXS.

The price they had quoted me in 1979 was 7500 pounds, showing an amazing climb in price after the inflationary 70s.

Do you have any indication of what proportion of Dicksons was built as non ejectors? I have seen photos of one non ejector and it looks like it would be a much simpler action to make without the proprietary ejector system.

A non ejector side pedal in 16 gauge would be about perfect, but that is a subjective opinion.

By the time you get to 1985, a single gun was �15,000 and within five years of that it was up to �22,000. Fast forward to 2008 and the price was �37,000. Today, you don't get much change out of �50k.

Ok, the ejector question is a difficult one because there are a number of ways to cut and dice it. The Dickson records are not complete, guns missing and also duplicated numbers! Quite a few early guns were also converted to another maker/type of ejectors system before Dickson came out with their own one.

All the early round-actions were built as non-ejectors (from 1880), the earliest patent use number issued was No. 20 from 19th Sept. 1881. Nobody has seen a patent use number below this, so not sure if the numbers were even issued (the first triple barrelled Dickson carries the 'Patent No. 1' stamp but this was for three barrelled guns). The early guns were all non-ejectors and really streamlined, and the first set here were not even round-actions but back-action sidelocks using the cocking bar patent.

As I said above, Dickson fitted ejectors to round-actions from other makers and some prototypes of their own, the first noted on guns No. 4024 & 4025 from 1886. Dickson's own patent ejector system came into effect on gun No. 4074 in 1887 (the coil spring in the action) and was refined in revised 1899 patent with the claw 'kicker' and compressor, which opens the barrels, we recognise today.

The last patent use number issued and recorded in the records is 1910 and belongs to gun No. 7597 delivered on 12th Oct. 1956 for �320. There were some 28 round-actions built after this gun to present but Dicksons stopped issuing patent use numbers around this time.

Ok, after all of that some maths based on the info we have to hand with some speculation. The count of hammerless round-actions in the records is 1825 due to patent use numbers omitted or complete record entries missing (I think the number is actually closer to 2000). Of this number approximately 1600 were built as ejectors as intended.

Dickson never made a 16 bore side-pedal ejector or non-ejector with two barrels. They did however make five three barrelled side-pedal guns in 16 bore, but you need to dig really deep to buy one!