doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Lengthen Forcing Cones - $75.00 per hole

Ted, I haven't shot Eleys in some time and I don't remember for sure going back to when I did use them fairly frequently. But
SOME British shells are actually 67-67.5MM, which is slightly longer than 2 1/2", and are loaded to 2 1/2" pressures and marked as appropriate for use in 2 1/2" guns. Several years ago, Charles Fergus reported (SSM article) that he was experiencing blown ends AND increased recoil from those loads in a 19th century Brit gun with short, sharp forcing cones. Same loads worked fine in a between the wars Brit gun, also 2 1/2", but with longer tapered forcing cones. He went to true 2 1/2" shells in his 19th century Brit gun: No more issues with blown ends or increased recoil.

Both MAJ Burrard and Gough Thomas reported that the Brits also loaded 2 3/4" hulls to 2 1/2" pressures, and that those were OK--and showed no pressure increases--when fired in guns with 2 1/2" chambers. However, per Fergus--and there have been a few similar reports--what holds in more modern Brit guns with 2 1/2" chambers does not hold in ALL 2 1/2" chambered guns. I expect the majority of us here with 2 1/2" guns through which we shoot a lot of shells are reloading 2 3/4" American hulls to appropriate pressures. I've done so on a number of Brit doubles with no problems, but they've all been 20th century guns with "normal" forcing cones. If you're blowing the ends off hulls, and in particular if you're getting increased recoil, that's a really good time to stop what you're doing and go to true 2 1/2" hulls.

Hypothetical question:

You find two identical models of your long sought relatively rare high grade vintage double at a gun show. One has been hunted all of its life, is dinged on both the wood and metal, the engraving is worn heavily from carrying, the checkering is almost smooth, the lever well left of center, the barrels have dings from a variety of hunting "incidents" and nearly no finish. But...the chokes and chambers are pristine factory configuration, never touched by a "grinder" or reamer.

The other gun is nearly new looking, clearly not hunted or shot much if at all, nearly 100% factory finishes, engraving sharp as the day it was cut, untouched everywhere...except the chokes and chambers and forcing cones have been "violated". Chambers cut from 2 1/2" to 2 3/4", forcing cones lengthened, chokes openned from full/full to LF/M. A wallthickness gauge verifies it's all plenty safe.

Both are the same price. You can't afford both. You'll likely never see another example.

Which do you buy?

Here they are, Larry, along with a photo of the offender:



The VIPs are pretty clearly marked 65mm, 2 1/2 inch. I also have used Eley "Super Game", in 12 gauge loading, which is, or was, (Eley ownership has changed since I ordered my last pallet of ammunition) a 67mm cartridge, and I truly regret the fact that I haven't been able to get more of them in 12 gauge loading for some time. Both loads are outstanding. The VIP open up to 2 1/2, in this 16 gauge loading.

I wish I had made a chamber cast of the Tobin, before the work was done, so we could all sit here and speculate what was going on the day the gun was built. One thing I don't regret at all is having Stan Baker work on the gun. It is a fine handling and shooting piece, now. Oh, the last ripped end cartridge would have come out of the gun in the very early 1990s, right after I got it. Its all good now, Larry.

Chuck, I think I'd go with gun #2, especially if the price was the same as gun #1. Sounds like it would be great to actually shoot with.


Best,
Ted

Neither.

Chuck,

Neither.

Everybody has a different set of standards. Personally I have never bought an old gun, rifle or shotgun or pistol that has been modified by anybody, including re-stocks, barrel work, recoil pads, wood extensions, extra holes drilled, cut barrels and so forth. Since I am a hunter and not a collector, a refinish on wood or metal doesn't bother me unless poorly done, and that's a personal judgement call as I reblue and re-case many of them myself........

In almost every case a factory worksheet, where available, before purchase will indicate what a particular gun left the factory with, i.e. barrel length, choke boring, Length of Pull and so forth.....

Where I hunt I have no use for anything but Full and Modified chokes, open choke borings are a handicap.

As an example, so many times it is noted in ads, stating "factory period pad", when in most cases the factories NEVER installed pads but left that option up to dealers and hardware store smiths on pre WWII guns.

Here are JUST A FEW examples of "owner" modification turn offs for me, again this is JMO........

CUT BARRELS,


TORCH COLORS,


NON FACTORY WOOD AND NON FACTORY WOOD PROFILE, FIELD GRADE GUN WITH GAUDY WOOD,


SAW AND PATCH,


RUBBER COUNTER WEIGHTS,


AND OF COURSE ANY "GRINDING" INSIDE THE BARRELS AT EITHER END IS A "NO SALE" IN MY BOOK,



Just my opinion, others will vary......

http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbt...true#Post298391

Exception.

Sam

Mike, for you the guns in question are 32" 28ga Parker AAHE.

Actually my current holy grail is a Philadelphia Fox XE 20 gauge with 28" or 30" barrels, double triggers, straight grip, and original finishes and original butt.

Now if I was at a gun show and found two identical Fox XE 20s, both at the same price, that met the criteria except that one had had the chambers lengthened and the chokes opened and one hadn't I would buy the one with the original chokes and chambers.

If the one with altered chambers was all that was available I wouldn't buy it unless I thought it was underpriced. I then would use it for trading up to the one I want or to make a little pocket money when I sold it.

In support of Chuck's position I don't think the market discounts extended chambers much, assuming a good craftsman did a correct job of extending them and adequate chamber wall thickness. But it doesn't mean I won't.

I'm not a collector but a shooter, however, I do like a nice looking gun.
One that has had a larger extension on the stock like the previous pic would not interest me, nor would a price for a well worn gun that was the same as a pristine one just because of the makers' name.
I can certainly deal with 2 1/2" chambers and tight chokes however, they are not an issue for me.
Davide

The well used one- and a few flats of 2.5" RST shells to shoot in it-