doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Buy The Action vs. Buy The Barrels

I am in accord with nearly all this thread.
I sell a lot of sleeved guns which give people with more modest means a way of owning a really nice gun but at a huge discount on one with fine, original barrels.
My first Blanch was bought with sleeved barrels and it is my wet weather gun to this day (and I am very fond of it).
I am with Digs on this one: if the action is a beauty then restocking and/or rebarreling/sleeving is a very serious proposition.
I recently bought in a well-used, early 12g H&H Royal. The barrels were toast but the wood and action were good so it needed re-barrelling or sleeving. Re-barrelling was really not economically viable so I sleeved it, but to 16g! Now I have a really nice antique, 16g SLE with 30" tubes and balance to die for. It was destined for the stock list but I'm tempted to keep it for my own use for a while!
I also have my father's J Blanch & Son back action SLE. Due to poor antique workmanship on a repair, there is a very thin patch in the left tube and it really needs to be sleeved. However, I am planning to keep the lovely old, but thin, damascus tubes intact and have the gun rebarrelled in 16g chopperlump, strictly for my own use. It may not be a valuable gun but the combination of a family hearloom, fine wood that fits and a beautifully engraved action make it worthwhile for me.
Old guns with issues are only constrained by ones imagination and depth of ones pocket!

The figure 3000 sterling for resleeving is interesting. In Italy you can get a good quality monobloc set of barrels for less than one third that price.

The idea of fitting monobloc barrels on an English action will ruffle more than a few board feathers. But personally, if the choice is between a new good quality set of monobloc barrels and resleeving, I would go for the monobloc.

Having seen the barrel quality controls in the Perazzi factory, and the degree of use and abuse monobloc barrels get in target shotguns, I am a firm believer in the monobloc. I do though understand why many people just cannot accept the notion of substituting the original chopper lumps with this system.

An engineer friend is currently doing a CAD esign for a monobloc base after having scanned the action to which it will fit. A 3D prototype of ABS plus plastic will be made first to test fit and function. I will let you know how it goes. If it works it might be a solution to rebarreling at a reasonable cost, for those that do not mind the monobloc way.

Being a perennial worry wart I want repairability built into my barrels. And that will be an interesting thing to try too.

[quote=Shotgunlover]"Brittany Man, let us see a specific example, a Bretta 626 with a badly bulged barrel. It was deribbed, the Monobloc was gently heated and the barrel knocked out."

Shotgun lover. In your reference to a set of monobloc bbs sourced in Italy for 1000 Pounds would these be comparable in quality to the Beretta 626 example you referred to above or to the quality of sleeved bbls Dig referred to @ 3000 pounds Sterling? By "quality" I mean materials, workmanship & aesthetics.

No one here questions the advantages of using monobloc bbls in mass produced guns but I think most doubt the desirability of using monobloc bbls in high quality guns. The fact that no manufacturer of high quality guns(even Beretta) that I am aware of currently uses the monobloc system on their top line guns is telling. I think monobloc construction would have a better chance of finding acceptance at the top end if more attention was paid to eliminating the join line at the junction of the monobloc & bbls as is done with high quality sleeving but I'm sure this increases production costs.

If you care nothing for aesthetics & value "repairability" & low cost of manufacturing over all else you should adopt the system that Savage Arms uses on the 110 rifles (bbl threaded into the action & a threaded sleeve around the bbl to adjust headspace & lock the bbl in place"). It looks like hell but works very well & you can replace bbls easily & cheaply

I fully understand the almost sacriliegeous nature of putting monobloc barrels on a gun that started life equipped with chopper lump barrelss. But if the finances do not go up to the sums mentioned above, and they sound reasonable by English standards, some makers charge double that, then monobloc maybe a solution. It can put a loved gun back in action safely.

The Effebi factory offers barrel sets. I would say they are as good as the 626 barrels and you have a choice of tubes. A friend has had work done by Lutterotti e Lira, a gunsmith firm and they offered Boehler tubes too. Striking up is a matter of skill for the man who will fit them on the action.

That line thing is definitely a matter of aesthetics. Perazzi uses monobloc on their best and to me, and obviously to many others, they pass the beauty test. On the other hand, I lost the argument with the man who made my boxlock years ago, he would not let one of his guns go out with that monobloc line. So he gave me an ultimatum: dovetail lump or no gun. I relented.

By "repairability" I had something like the Pieper, the Robust, the SO Beretta line, the Parker and the model 21 in mind. A replaceable shim on the hook, a shoe on the rear lump, are hardly noticeable, and they can fix loose barrels without resorting to spray welding, dovetailing etc which to me seem a little too drastic for what is needed. I would rather have the smith push out a well designed shim and the new one fitted with a few passes with a scraper.

If more guns had this feature we would not be agonizing about what to do with our old guns now. They would have been fixed easily and at a reasonable cost by any fairly competent gunsmith.

The cost is a factor but not the only factor. Referring to repairability I had the aeronautic and marine use of the term in mind. There there is no "repair" mentality. the job must return the system back to its original condition, the more fitting word perhaps would be "renewability". In guns the best example is the Beretta trunnions, locking bolt and replaceable shoulders that bring loose barrels back to new condition. They have them on the SO and later models and they are not cheap.

I prefer to buy the trigger guard. I can always replace the action, stock, and barrels, but a good trigger guard is hard to find.

[quote=Shotgunlover

"That line thing is definitely a matter of aesthetics. Perazzi uses monobloc on their best and to me, and obviously to many others, they pass the beauty test".

The "best gun" level Perazzi's were the DHO(sidelock SxS) & SHO (sidelock o/u) & the few that I have seen & handled were not of monobloc construction. The SHO was demibloc construction & I am 99% sure the DHO was chopper lump construction but to be honest I never looked close enough to see for sure & I can't find a reference that says so. To my knowledge these guns are no longer available as Perazzi moved to more of a high volume production model but my point is that when they attempted to build a gun at the top level they didn't use the monobloc system as they were doing with their production line guns.

Note: I'll stand corrected re. the SHO as I did a google search & came up with a picture of a SHO that clearly has monobloc bbls. It's difficult to be knowledgeable about the SHO & DHO with so few of these guns around & Lippard's book isn't of great help.

Anyway, to keep on topic I think repairs on any gun should be done with the concept of returning it to the original quality level as best you possibly can & your pocket book allows. On fine guns, if people can't afford to repair them to the original quality level I wish they would pass the gun on to someone who can rather than butchering them. I would prefer new bbls of original construction but I can accept sleeved bbls done to a very high level.

Wburns- I appreciate your humor but it also rang a chord. Lately I have been designing a SXS, strictly personal, not business. Getting the trigger guard curves just right is the hardest bit of all!

Brittany man- "I wish they would pass the gun on to someone who can rather than butchering them"

I agree 100 per cent, which is why I keep stressing totally reversible procedures that will leave the original structure alone till someone with the finances or some new technology comes along and can do things right. Watching a pair of damascus barrels being cut off before sleeving is unsettling. It would be bettet to build an additional, if somewhat unauthentic, pair of cheaper barrels for use and leave the originals for display purposes if nothing else.

On the damascus issue. Has anyone researched whether cryogenic treatment enhances damascus steel strength? I have access to cryo equipment but do not want to risk my Cogsewell 410. The cryo guy offered to do microphotography of the grain before and after on a test piece but that would be an inconclusive test at best.

"Watching a pair of damascus barrels being cut off before sleeving is unsettling."

Yes, I agree. It's a shame that the Teague bbl lining system apparently had some issues. I liked the concept.