doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Sweet Sixteens

Jay, I second your opinion. Love my 16 sxs for carry weight vs. killing power ratio.

OK, I got both guns out of the safe(s) again.

My original assertion was that the Sweet 16 is built on a 20 gauge receiver. If the 16 predates the 20, then it must be the other way around.

The following measurements tend to support the assertion that the Sweet 16 and 20 ga. A-5's share the IDENTICAL receiver (at least before the gauge specific machining).

Guns in question 76Z-88xxx (1976 20ga.) and 5S-36xxx (S-16, 1965). I originally claimed 1963... sorry, it's from 65.

My advisors are Mr. Starrett and Mr. Stanley.

Mr. Stanley says both receivers measure 6 3/8" in length from the back of the mythical 'hump' to the front.

Mr. Starrett says:

Height top to bottom just in back of the closure button - 2 9/16".

Width same place - 1 9/32". Width across the rounded part above the bolt - 1 7/16".

Height just in front of the trigger including trigger plate - 2 3/4".

These measurements are indentical on both guns.

Both of my advisors claim the tang length is also identical, although the distance between the tops of the tangs varies very, very, slightly probably making stock interchange very 'iffy'. Stock interchange on A-5's in general is known to be 'iffy'. There was some hand fitting (imagine!) on these.

So... my advisors have a different opinion on this than some other advisors.

Will someone kindly measure a standard 16?

As Nimitz radioed Halsey "The world wonders".

Can't comment on the frame size, but I have owned one each Browning Standardweight 16 and two each Sweet 16's. Before I get to them, I'll go to Browning advertising copy, as included in the 1940 Shooter's Bible. That publication separates Standard 16's from Sweet 16's. Refers to the Sweet 16 as being a "special lightweight automatic shotgun", about 6 3/4#. One weight saving measure is a narrower raised rib on both solid and VR guns. Standard 16 listed at 7 1/4#. And from the introduction of the 16 until 1940, chamber length on both types was 2 9/16". Thus, if you want an A-5 16 and don't want to shoot short shells, beware of the early ones.

Now as to weight, on the guns I've owned, taken on the same digital postal scale: Standardweight 16, 28" barrel, solid rib. Weight: 7/12. Sweet 16, 26" barrel, vent rib. Weight: 7/0. Sweet 16, 28" plain barrel. Weight: 6/14.

I cannot comment on frame size, since I never owned a Standard and a Sweet at the same time. But per the above, I can certainly comment on weight. Whatever weight reduction features the Sweet 16 has, I'd say they will result in about half a pound less weight (per the Browning material from the 1940 Shooters Bible), assuming a gun with the same length barrel, same type rib, factory stock. (All of mine had unaltered factory wood.) Note that of the 2 28" inch guns, the plain barrel Sweet has nearly a pound in weight advantage over the Standard. Add in a few ounces for the solid rib on the Standard and you probably have just about that half pound difference in favor of the Sweet.

Browning Sweet 16's are serious quail killing machines, for sure! If we had gobs of quail like in the old days, I'd still be hunting with one. The Light 20 is a 'sweet' gun too IMHO.

Has anyone seen a short chambered Sweet Sixteen?

Yes, but they're not all that common. Browning only made about 23,000 16ga A-5's, total, from 1936-40. And because they didn't differentiate between Standards and Sweets by serial number until 1953, no way to know how many of those were Sweet 16's. They made over 100,000 16's from 1946-53 (again, no breakdown Standard vs Sweet during that period), and another 110,000 Sweet 16's from 1953-76. So your odds of finding a short-chambered Sweetie vs 2 3/4" aren't very good. If we assume (always risky), based on the fact that roughly equal numbers of Standards and Sweets were produced from 53-57, that the same ratio held for the rest of the time the guns were made, that would mean there were about 15X more 2 3/4" Sweets produced vs 2 9/16".

HI Everyone,
I have not posted in quite a while. I agree with much of what Stan said on page 1. That said I do have a few disagreements. First off my favorite guage is a properly sized and weighted 16 ga, almost always a continental offering. I most often hunt Ruffed Grouse and released pheasant. When carrying all day long often on my hands and knees, a gun much over 6 lbs is just too much, I need to be quick after 3,4 or more hours in the field. If I am using one of my 12's that weigh 7.5 to 9.5lbs I just will not be as effective. That said I cant argue with a nice light 12 (6.5lb area I have a beautiful grade 4 Ithica 1913 that weighs 6lb 4oz with 28" barrels. To me it is less the guage and more the largest guage while retaining proper weight and balance. I don't see a reason to use a 410 which may work well on early season dove or quail it still is less effective then a similar weighted 28,20,16 or 12 so why use it?
I have a couple of very nice 20's but rarely use them because the 16's have more payload and weigh about the same.
Ofcourse I am assuming you are equally effective accuracy wise with all the guages. Now when I hunt late season wild pheasant anything less then a modern 12 that can take high pressure number 4's or 5's is is not enough so I deal with the weight. The walking is quite a bit easier then grouse hunting physically.
I do not hunt ducks but I believe I would feel the same, either a 12 or even 10 guage, in particular if I am not walking very much.
Enjoy what ever is the right guage or gun for you. I love my 16's both o/u's and sxs's but do also take out my 12's and even 10's.

Jeff G.

From a pal who has an A-5 book. Sorry, I don't have the title or author. Info on chamber length is good...


Could find no specific mention re. 16ga on same receiver as
20ga. however on pg 110: "Part of the forward edge of the receiver is milled away to accommodate the 16ga cartridge
stop in fig, 110-1. The 16ga Standard, Sweet Sixteen and 20ga Light Weight used this system throughout production."

Other info re. chamber sizing on 16ga., in section on Standard
Weight 16ga.: This gun was developed as a lighter option to the 12ga. Auto-5. FN used the 2 9/16 inch (65mm) chamber on all 16ga. Auto-5's until May 1940.

Page 151 same section: "Records are unclear on chamber size for 16ga, Auto-5's sold to Allied soldiers following liberation of Belgium in 1944. Also unknown was the chamber size of this model that FN sold to markets other than the US. August 8, 1958 FN sales materials for the Auto-5 indicate the following: The 16ga. barrels were until recently chambered for 2 9/16 inch cartridges. The conclusion from this statement is that FN supplied some markets with 2 9/16 inch chambered Standard Weight 16 and Sweet Sixteen Auto-5's until the late 1950's".

"Beginning January 1957, Browning imports of the Sweet Sixteen were chambered for 2 3/4 inch shells. The receivers
for the Standard 16 and the Sweet Sixteen, chambered for 2 3/4 inch, are both marked with an "X" preceding the serial number. The barrels are marked for 2 3/4 inch shells and the
"16-70" chamber size indicator is stamped on the left side of the barrel near the barrel extension".

Also sending an order form from Wet Dog Publications for a Browning Auto-5 Shotgun book. It's a pretty inclusive work
that I'm sure you'll enjoy. Have made copies of those pages covering 16ga. both Standard Weight and Sweet Sixteen and will post them to you via snail mail.

Thanks, SJ. I appreciate your efforts.

Re the quote about 2 3/4" chambers post-1957 . . . as a former owner of one each Standard 16 and Sweet 16 made before 1957, I can verify that they handled American factory 2 3/4" shells without the least problem. That would not be true if they'd been chambered for 2 9/16" shells, because it's not only a question of the chamber, but also of ejection, etc. And if none of the 16's made prior to Jan 57 were 2 3/4", that would mean WAY more short chambered 16's, both Sweet and Standard, floating around than 2 3/4" guns. About 300,000 of them, not including the pre-war guns. By the late 50's and 60's--which was long before the current interest in short-chambered guns--I'm not sure where anyone in this country would have gone to buy short 16ga shells for those guns, and that's what they would require.

I have no doubt that FN continued to make short 16ga A-5's long after the war. 16's, many of them still short-chambered if not made specifically for the American market, were still quite popular in postwar Europe.