doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Model 21 Experts

And this old Fox(y) agrees 100%. The Model 21 possibly started our in 1931 (or, 1941 if you read Steve Bodio's book on shotguns closely) as a utility grade boxlock double gun, retailing at I believe, $59.95 for the double triggered and manual extractors field gun. Design began back around 1925-1926 at WRA-- interesting to me, as an amateur metallurgist-same time frame when WRA offered their FUBARed stainless steel barrels- (A good friend and fellow WRA buff has a M12 Trap gun and a M54 in .257R, both with stainless steel barrels- when that fiasco ended in about 1930, WRA went to Winchester Proof Steel (AISI 4140)and dropped the Nickel steel alloy for their barrels, receivers, etc--

So, thanks to John Olin's love of the side-by-side gun (see Houchin's book on LC Smith shotguns, you will see pictures of his 12 Specialty grade with extra barrel set- AE and HOT- cased)--and the then new WPS, he allegedly pushed for production of this "work-horse" double, as Parker, AH Fox, Ithaca and LC Smith were seeing their retail sales plummet as a result of the Great Depression.

I think, and this is just my guess, that had it NOT been for the Winchester Custom shop and their made-to-order options to the buyers with "deep pockets"; ie: You could only buy an "off the rack" Model 12, Model 54 or later Model 70- no Super Grades or Pigeon Grades, the M21 might have stayed as the "plain Jane" boxlock-- but as WRA offered options and Custom shop made to order M21's, that changed.

I do not own, nor plan to, either a graded AH Fox or a M21-- I stay with lower graded pre-1913 12 gauge LC Smiths due to "supply and demand" and also, because like Field grade Model 12's, I seem to shoot them fairly well- on game birds and barn pigeons- I am NOT a clays shooter--

I have one AH Fox- a 20 gauge Sterlingworth with 28" barrels, ejectors and DT-- it weighs 6 lbs. even-- a hunting pal has a pre-WW2 mfg. 20 gauge M21 Trap grade- 28" barrels, ejectors, DT and smallish beavertail forearm- and it weighs 7 lbs 3 oz. I rest my case--

Rest your case in peace...

Here is an early 30's Model 21, 20 gauge with 28" bbls, DT's and a SPFE. 6lbs 2 oz
I'd be 6 even but I added a petite solid buttpad(still have the original plate)

Yup, I had an identical early 20 gauge that weighs 6 pounds 2 ounces. I could have drilled it down to six or under. It is a 28" gun. Ken, tell us more about the sale of the 21.

8B

The sale didn't happen. I bid it up to what I thought was a fair price that included the 15% buyers premium. I got out bid but there was apparently a reserve that wasn't met. Several other guns went the same direction.

Tip-toeing in, I go along with views that grade-for-grade there are better American guns. JO'C's endorsement was: "I believe the Model 21 Winchester double is probably the strongest, most rugged, and most trouble-free double ever made." Even taking out the qualifier, that doesn't say much for the Model 21. There's more to a good gun than strength and plumbing.

Yep--There's feather crotch, super steel, fine fitment, WS chokes and an ability to put a smile on your face because the bird is down and it all happened so naturally. (I do agree that some of the prettiest girls at the dance are Parkers and Foxs though.)

Don't think that's all O'Connor had to say about the 21. I never read him, but was influenced to check out the 16 ga. M-21 by what Gene Hill and Don Zutz wrote of it. I've never regretted buying mine -- it's not hard to dismiss naysayers who've never seen nor handled it. I like it enough that I invested in dressing it up a little ... posted a few photos recently on the "Bulino Engraving" thread.

Jay

This naysayer has seen and handled it, Jay, and the Parkers and Foxes. JO'C's assessment also provides how much---or little---has changed over the years:

"One of my bitter regrets is that I didn't buy U.S. Steel at 40 right after the war and another is that I didn't lay in a better supply of Model 21s at the same time."

Winchester gave up on the standard Model 21 and made it a luxury item, "custom made to special order only." Scarcity, about 100 a year, made it a good investment.

King, I spoke of my gun in particular. The guns can vary a lot in weight and weight distribution that determines handling characteristics.

Some think O'Connor was a virtual mouthpiece for Winchester, so it's odd to see his comments used to damn with faint praise. As I said, I never read him, but long as we're quoting him, I quickly found this about his 20 ga.:

"The little gun is the finest all-around shotgun I've ever owned, and I use it on everything from quail to ducks about three fourths of the time...." It clearly wasn't only about scarcity or strength for him.

Winchester stopped making the 21 as a "production" gun because the expense of manufacture was too high. Their production operation was never high volume, only made some 34,000 total, which I think includes the custom shop guns.

Jay

Well, if they're such great guns and so relatively few were made why are there always so many offered for sale?