doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion German & Austrian Sporting Guns @ doublegunshop.com 16 bore loads

I go through something similar to this every time I go to work up a round ball load in a bore gun....20 bore, 12 bore and now 16 bore. Confirm my reasoning here:

A normal 16 bore load is 1 to 1 1/18 oz. of shot...right? That's what I've been loading in my pre-WW1 Ithaca 16 bore double for years. Ok, the .678 mold I got from RCBS throws a round ball of 470 grs. By my calculaitons that's 21 grains lighter than a 1 1/8 oz load of shot. Therefore there should be no reason my old Cape gun will not digest the round ball with 3-4 drams of Ffg, correct? Obviously I would start at 3 drams and work up, if needed. Thoughts, opinions, advice?

Sharps,
Theory only: A 16 ga ball should weigh 1/16 of a pound or one oz. I think the "classic" 16 ga shot load was 1 oz( I shoot almost only 16 ga and like you usually shoot 1 1/8 oz- 1 1/4 oz #2 in Germany). I think 1 oz is about 437gr, which is less than your mold drops. I think worrying in this much detail is "too much sugar for a dime". If your ball is the right dia.,I wouldn't worry about the weight,drive on with whatever you think the load should be. I wouldn't put too much hope in the gun shooting a bullet and a ball to a similar POI. If it does,be very happy. Mike

Thanks Mike, and you're probably right about too much sugar for a dime....and I've never heard that one before, good one! I finally thought to just look at the boxes of old 16 bore ammo I have. You're right I believe, 1 oz. is probably the classic load for a 16. I do have two boxes of Remington 1 1/8 oz. loads. I also noticed that 2 1/2 drams was the most common with 2 3/4 drams for the 1 1/8 oz. load.

I did hit a glitch...maybe. While double checking my measurements I stuck the calipers in the muzzle. It mics .640-.642, I guess I forgot that. That's gonna squeeze the .678 RB down .036. Is shooting a RB with that much constriction a good practice? Bear in mind I'm 95% a rifleman and not near as comfortable working with smootbores. If my memory serves me correctly with that much constriction I shouldn't expect much in the way of accuracy. But then, I wonder how much difference there is between a round ball hitting 3-4 inches of rifling at the end of a barrel as in the Paradox and Explora firearms and hitting that much choke?

I did try two 1 oz. loads and two 1 1/8 oz. loads of #6 shot. 1 oz. load was 2 1/2 drams and 1 1/8 oz. load was 2 3/4 drams. Pattern looked pretty fair from about 30 yards on a white board and recoil was mild, hulls fell from the chamber when the barrels were turned up.

Oh the burdens I carry....being compelled to work with these old things.

Sharps,
Understand that this is a completely uneducated opinion,since I have exactly zero experience loading shotgun shells,much less "Punkin Ball" loads. The area of interference with the RB you would be pretty small( I guess we could calculate it, but that would really be too much sugar for a dime)and since the ball would be moving when it hit,I don't think the pressure would spike much. In my experience,my inside measurements with a caliper directly comes out smaller by a couple thousanths than if I use a small hole or T gauge and Micrometer.This would give a little relief.Its pretty well known that different alloy will give different bullet weight, but it will also give different diameters.You might lose another couple thousanths by varying the alloy, here we go again with that sugar.The performance with shot seems good enough that I would recommend just using shot, except now you have me interested in what a ball will do.
Mike

For right now I'm going to be happy with the shot shell loads. I'm not giving up on RB's though. I either need to bite the bullet...ain't that a pun...and get a set of 16 bore dies so I can size the case down enough to hold the RB or find a roll crimp tool. I need the tool anyway so once I find one I'll get into the RB.

I understand what you're saying about the alloy. If I remember correctly a harder alloy gives a larger diameter. The balls I cast were straight lead and were .678 so I don't believe I would be gaining anything....if I remembered correctly.

That dadgummed Seyfried....he had that article about 10 years ago about his Alexander Henry Cape gun that printed the bullet and the ball to the same sight. I was hoping for that....and it might be yet. Won't know til I try, eh!

I don't know a heck of a lot about loading ball or rifle ammunition, and only a little more about loading shotgun ammunition, but wouldn't a paper patch make academic a difference of a couple of thous in the ball?

Also, AFAIK, the accuracy of your round ball load will drop off as velocity increases, because a non-spinning ball will knuckle unpredictably, just like something thrown by Rick Wakefield or RA Dickey.

That is probably too much constriction. I wouldn't risk it just because an error would lead to a situation that is basically unfixable.
I have shot remington slugs through a few 16ga cape guns and with the foster design there never seemed to be any issues around them squeezing down.
Surprisingly enough, they tended to be fairly accurate and regulate ok as well in the guns I shot them in.
The fired rem cases are inbetween 2 3/4 and 2 5/8.

Tom

Dave, the issue isn't getting the round ball up to bore diameter, it's slamming a .678 round ball through a .640-.642 choke, unless I've misunderstood what you mean.

Tom, that is the question my mind keeps coming back to, is that too much constriction. My 20 bore fowler, cylinder bore, will lay patched .600 RB's into a 2-3 inch group at 40 yards with boring consistency. Even if it wouldn't mess up a fine old firearm, with that much constriciton am I going to be able to hit anything with it.

Then I think, "get a smaller RB mold" but with pure lead RB's obturating to bore dia. we're back to the same situation. The bore mics .680 for at least the first 2-3 inches in front of the chamber so I'm back to what I started with....sheesh!!!!

When I was cleaning the barrel yesterday I learned that the choke does run back down the bore from the muzzle for 3-4 inches. and it's pretty tight. A 20 bore jag with a doubled T-shirt patch wouldn't go through it without a lot of push.

Mike, I think you're right.....too much sugar for a dime.

I thought your problem was the other way around. My bad.

35-40 thousandths is a lot of constriction to try to ram a slug through, IMHO. That's like 3/64; some bamboo fly rod strips tips are that big....

Now you opened another can of worms, Dave....lol!! I'll be putting the calipers to my bamboo fly rod tips to see what they measure....