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Joined: Jan 2002
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quote:
I offered to refund Mr. Vella"s money but he refused. Anything we sell can be returned for any reason or no reason, for a refund, except brand new items which can only be returned if we ship the wrong item. (He also scornfully refused my offer of a store credit as a goodwill gesture for the delay..perhaps a clue to his temperament).


Mr.Gould, I challenge you, here in an open forum, to post from your "Sent Items" file the message in which you made this offer to me. Such a post would have to be a "Cut and Paste", complete with addresses and date/time stamps, the same as I have done here, to show their authenticity. I do not wish to get into a mud-slinging match here. I, personally, despise people who use the anonimity of the internet to make statements which would earn them a "knuckle sandwich" if made when face-to-face. However, I will say here in public, that your statement in the quotes above, is untrue. AT NO TIME, until after I posted this caveat, did you offer ANYTHING, except a $25.00 credit against any future purchase.

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Originally Posted By: B Frech
Why is it that our culture ASSUMES the seller to be the honest one? Why doesn't the seller ship, and then the purchaser send payment when he receives what he purchased?


Probably because most buyers would have this risk once or twice in a year, while a busy dealer would have it once or twice a day. Too much risk to stay in business with unknown customers, while a dealer has to protect his reputation. How many of us do you think will order from doublegunhfdfq now?

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To the seller: you made a mistake sending the case to Calf. to solve your problem ...... AND trying to lay off the mistake on the buyer in public. Is a CFH anyone who doesn't like what you do? I've looked at your site a few times and would have considered doing business with you ...... Now it would have to be a "must have" item for me to consider it. BTW I think you owe him the cost of the keys and lock repair.
To the buyer: When you were told that the case went to Calif. Why didn't you tell the seller not to bother sending it to you ..... it was a deal breaker. I think you didn't because you still thought it was worth the money ..... By letting him send it to you ..... and accepting the shipment when it arrived you took some of the risk.

Al

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Russ, when you chose to ship to someone other than Ron, you gave up any ethical standing to question his description of the case when he received it. You have only the word of a 3rd party about it's condition when shipped to Ron. You have only Ron's word about it's condition when received. You choose to believe the 3rd party and accuse Ron of lying.

You became defensive and angry at Ron's intemperance about your unauthorized use of his case. You even acknowledge that you might have responded differently but for his attack on you. Does this make him a liar?

This statement shows self-justifying, even grandiose thinking based on your choice to demonize Ron:
"I don't sell out my principles to protect my pocketbook. Expediency is not in my vocabulary. That's for politicians.
Placating a CFH to keep him quiet is not being big, that's being small."

No. What's big is taking responsibility for a mistake, recognizing that you earned your customer's angry reaction, and giving benefit of the doubt where you failed your commitment to him and gave away control of the case.

Now as for small ... that seems to describe your offer of purchase credit rather than reimbursing expenses. Your first principle seems to be to win -- to save a buck or make a buck, both going and coming, and avoid any real out of pocket consequences for your actions.

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Vella, In your first post you said you didn't take the full refund because you would have been out customs fees not because Russ didn't offer it. You kept the case and all your claims of damage are unsubstantiated. Everyone here, including the seller, agrees that it was wrong to send the case via CA. Drop it already.

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Unbelievable thread. Were I Mr. Gould, I would have offered to take the case back AND refund Mr. Vella's duty and shipping, if only to make up for my boneheaded move of using someone else's possessions as a shipping container.

Gould's "justifications" for his actions are the mark of a sharp operator (as well as not being too bright) and now everyone on this board knows to watch out for him. Business is so easy and profitable if you're honest, look out for your customers, are fair, and try to sell things as described.

The negative publicity Gould has generated for himself is going to cost him a LOT more than taking back the case and refunding the duty would have cost him. Bad business strategy and execution, for sure.

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Mr. Vella, you are right on this point, however this is a standard portion of our terms of sale, which is copied verbatim from our website:

RETURNS AND REFUNDS: NetworkRetailing LLC (not the seller) will refund your purchase price excluding shipping costs, provided both the seller and NetworkRetailing LLC are notified by email within three days (72 hours) of delivery or within ten days (240 hours) of payment confirmation, whichever is sooner, that the item will be returned, and provided further that the items are in fact returned (i.e. delivered, not shipped) to the seller or his agent at the seller’s option (not to NetworkRetailing LLC) within ten days of delivery to you or your agent, subject to the following additional conditions:

3. ALL USED ITEMS OTHER THAN FIREARMS: Any or all used items other than firearms may be returned for any reason or no reason to the relevant seller(s) provided that they are complete and in the same condition as shipped.

and regarding shipping damage

"Goods lost or damaged in transit to the buyer or his agent are the responsibility of the seller and vice versa. In the event of loss or damage en route to the buyer, the seller will at his option either replace the item or NetworkRetailing LLC will refund the full purchase price including outbound shipping to the buyer."

So basically you had the option to return the item for a refund; and if it transpired that the item was in fact damaged going out, you would have gotten your shipping costs back as well. But since you stated:

"I would return the case immediately, but for the fact that I have just paid an additional $97.21 to UPS for Customs Brokerage Fees and GST which I cannot now recover." and since you did not in fact return the item within the prescribed period, you gave up your right to compensation.

I assumed from your statement above that you understood you did have the right to return for a refund, and the point was moot.

If you had in fact returned it, and if it transpired that the case had been damaged in transit, I would have done two things:

1. Refunded your purchase price and your shipping cost both ways per policy. I don't have a policy with regard to customs duties, since we sell almost nothing outside the US due to the nature of the goods we are selling, however, I probably would have made that good as well because I would have been extremely embarrassed to find that you were right and I was wrong.
2. Submitted a claim to UPS for the damage that they inflicted on the case, since the case was fully insured for both legs.

I paid insurance on this case. If it were damaged en route, it's no skin off my nose to recover the cost from UPS and to make good with the customer. UPS insurance covers return shipping and any shipping incurred to repair the case. I have won every insurance claim I have ever made on UPS.But in order to win a claim, I have to have substantiation of damage. Pictures and usually UPS visits the customer's premises to inspect the item before it's returned.

To clarify re the above policies, in the case of this item, NR LLC was the seller.

The bottom line for buyers of goods on our websites is that the WORST CASE SCENARIO is that you are out the shipping on an item that you purchase from us. This protects us from "buyer remorse". If the item is damaged en route, you are OUT NOTHING. You either get an identical item (if it is replaceable) or you get ALL YOUR MONEY BACK.

However, if you keep the item, all bets are off. What could be more simple (or fair) than this?

The problem here is that I believed (and still believe) that the case arrived in the condition it left here, and was as described, complete with a bare spot in the felt in one compartment, but not ripped up and (as you now state 3 months later) bashed about. Yes, there were no keys but the case was not described as having keys, and in any case you were able to obtain keys for free from Americase. Regarding the combination lock, it was set to 0000 and it worked on 0000 as written on the case in marker pen. So all I knew was that it worked. Since this problem was brought up after things had already gotten heated, I dismissed it as operator error or worse.

I'll make a third and last attempt to straighten this out. Send the case back to me, and I will apply our policies retroactively. In other words, I will refund what you paid for it, your shipping, and your return shipping costs to me. In addition, in this case I will pay your customs duties and I will compensate you for the $50 you spent fixing it up. I won't be able to claim anything from UPS since there is no evidence of damage, and the claim period is up. So this comes out of my pocket.

The only condition is that you accept this offer on this BBS.


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Boy, that's the most begrudging, pouting, legalistic case of a man doing what he should have done in the first place, but it's now finally, painfully done. Absent a flat-out apology for mis-using a case sold to a customer, this is going to be as good as it gets.

Vella, send it all back, get your money back and end this insanity, for the love of God and L.C. Smith.

DeWayne

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This should have been your reply in the very beginning along with an apology...

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That's the correct offer, Russ. Consider anything you lost on this deal as business school tuition. You finally did good!

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