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Just offer to refund Mr. Vella's money and you will be way ahead. You are behind many multiples of the $300 or so we're talking about here now. As it stands now, I wouldn't purchase anything from you. I don't know you or him from Adam but like many, I generally think that if there is smoke......there is fire. Any good business man knows exactly what I'm talking about here...........refund!......its the only right answer.

Aloha,

Bob

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I have read this post with great interest as it shows how far we have come from the old days of "the customer is always right." Here the customer who purchased this case was right. The seller was wrong (and to his credit admits this).

The seller admittedly should not have used the recently sold case to ship a gun. However, to admit this wrong and apologize, the seller has only done half the right thing.

Using the case he sold to one customer to ship another's gun was more than bad judgment (but not quite theft because there was no intent to permanently deprive the customer of the item). Once that case left the seller to another customer's hands, the seller no longer controlled the condition, repacking of the case for shipment or the timing of the shipment to the rightful owner. The seller assumed the risk that the case would be damaged in transit or improperly shipped by the "middle man." The middle man will likely swear the case was just like the seller said it was as well as swear that he packed it and shipped it properly...it is in both the seller's and the middle man's best interest to do so (self serving statements).

The seller here chooses to believe the middle man over the customer of the case as if he (the seller) was the person entitled to judge by virtue of the fact that he now has the customer's money.

The seller to admit to making a mistake, apologize and to only offer a refund or paltry ($25) store credit wasn't nearly enough here. A reputable merchant would have not only apologized and admitted the mistake, but would have believed the customer and offered the customer a full refund of not only the purchase price but also all of the customer's out of pocket expenses (shipping charges and customs he paid).

Everyone makes mistakes and I am not suggesting that members of the forum were wrong to do business with this seller, or would be wrong to do business with him in the future. This was probably just a freak situation where the seller made a bad decision and like many of us, we are at our worst when we have done someone wrong. To err is human.

The seller here should call the buyer and the two of them should talk (honorable man to honorable man) and the seller needs to be forgiven and the buyer needs to forgive (for everything)---and if the seller would simply ask the buyer "what can I do to make this right with you" and do as the customer asked, I would expect we would all be witness to a happy resolution.

If the seller doesn't do this and soon, I suspect we will see this discussion degrade.

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You know, normally I bend over backwards to satisfy a customer. I had a case a few years back where I am convinced the customer dropped a gun while shaking it out of the box. He returned it because it had a chipped toe, the piece was in the box. It wasn't chipped when I (personally) packed it, in bubble wrap. I swallowed that. I had another where I shipped a guy a brand new set of Valmet 412 bbls. Normally I insist on fitting these, it's included in the price, but this guy wanted his in a BIG hurry as he was going hunting the next weekend and I was in Africa at the time so out they went. THREE WEEKS LATER he tells me the forend won't stay on the gun. I took them back and replaced them with a brand new pair. The forend lug had been filed down to a nub. On these bbls, if you file in the wrong places that's what you get. I think this guy, in a big hurry to go hunting, tried to fit these bbls himself. Needless to say, the bbls are ruined. But I ate that and he got a brand new set of SIC bbls that I fitted to his receiver.

It's not in my interest to misrepresent items as I get hit for 3% on credit card payments both ways when the item comes back. Even if someone pays by check, it's a pain to deal with refunds. In this case, he did pay by MO but my bank still hit me up for a charge since it was drawn on a Canadian institution. So I am careful about my descriptions and I typically get less than 5 returns a year. I got two last year, I think. I had a Parker 16 ga that had a weak toplever spring. I took it back, refunded the guy his money, replaced the spring, and sold it the next week to a guy who loves it. The other one, ironically, was the pair of WR 16 ga guns. They were a tad loose with the forends off, and I had Keith attend to that. That customer bought another gun from me instead.

But this gentleman's claims were so astounding and his tone was so offensive from the getgo that I just couldn't take him seriously. It's as if I shipped someone a sidelock and they told me that it was a boxlock. Read the posts again Bob and look at the picture. He got a very nice high quality case for $295. It wasn't good enough for him though. I offered to refund his money. He declined. I offered him a store credit anyway, letting him keep the case, just to pacify him. He told me to shove that too. And every email contained a new list of things that were wrong with it. Even now, six months later, he is still adding to the pile. And you know what, for all his allegations, he NEVER sent me a picture of any of the multitude of defects. Not one.

Here's what I think. He wanted this case to be perfect. Probably wanted to put his perfect pair of shotguns in it. He's a gunsmith so no doubt his guns are very nice. But it had a worn spot in one compartment, he knew that when he bought it because the description said as much. So he thought if he threw a big enough tantrum, I would pay to reline his case and viola, he would have a new case for the price of a used one. The fact that it arrived in Eastern Canada having shipping from the Pacific NW (yes, admittedly via San Francisco, two days from here by UPS) two weeks after his check arrived just gave him more ammo to fire at me. Why he is still firing is a mystery to me. That battle is over.

Are you saying I should refund his money and let him keep the case? I am sorry, no business does that. In cases where I have truly screwed up, I will refund the shipping as well even though our terms of sale say we refund the price of the item in the event of a return. But this wasn't one of those.

Every two years or so, I come across someone I call "the customer from hell". These CFH folks know the price of everything and the value of nothing. They are mad at the world and they are mad at themselves. If a transaction doesn't go according to their personal fantasy, they start a war, and if they don't get their own way, they get madder than hell. I don't let them bully me. Frankly, those are the kind of folks I would rather never see again so I don't fall for their tantrums and that's usually that. Not Mr. Vella though, he's going to take this $295 case to his grave with him. And it will be an early one if he keeps stacking this stuff up in his brain.

The CFH prior to Mr. Vella had me buy a Weatherby Orion III for him, as well as a Daly semi-auto. This was about 5 years ago. I ordered them specifically for him, from Bill Hicks. Got him a great deal. He had me cut the factory seals on the box of the Orion to take a picture of the wood before I shipped it. He got the guns, looked at them at his dealer's premises, took them home, then a couple of days later called me and told me that the Orion was a used gun and that he wanted to return it. He said the gun was still at his FFL. When I called his transfer FFL, he said the customer looked at the wood and didn't think it was nice enough. But he took the guns home anyway. Needless to say, I let this guy fume and fizzle but I didn't take the gun back.

We stand behind what we sell. On used items, if you don't like it, return it for any reason or no reason and you get your money back. On new items, make sure you want what you order because we don't take those back unless we shipped you the wrong item (and this has never happened. New guns are like cars...once you unpack them and handle them, they aren't new any longer. If new items are defective, they go to the manufacturer. But if you decide to keep the item, then we are done at that point.



Last edited by doublegunhq; 02/10/07 04:51 AM.

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Originally Posted By: doublegunhq
Read the posts again Bob and look at the pictures. He got a very nice case high quality case for $295. It wasn't good enough for him though. I offered to refund his money. He declined. I offered him a store credit anyway, letting him keep the case, just to pacify him. He told me to shove that too.

Are you saying I should refund his money and let him keep the case? I am sorry, no business does that.

Every two years or so, I come across someone I call "the customer from hell". These folks know the price of everything and the value of nothing. They are mad at the world and they are mad at themselves. If a transaction doesn't go according to their personal fantasy, they start a war, and if they don't get their own way, they get madder than hell. Frankly, those are the kind of folks I would rather never see again so I don't fall for their tantrums and that's usually that. Not Mr. Vella though, he's going to take this $295 case to his grave with him. And it will be an early one if he keeps stacking this stuff up in his brain.

We stand behind what we sell. If you don't like it, you get your money back. But if you decide to keep the item, that's that.



doublgunhq,
Regardless of how much he paid for the case it was his the moment you received the money and not to be used for shipping another customers goods. You were wrong morally if not legally to use it in said fashion.

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To dghq you do not know the condition he received it in. All that you know is how it left your place. Photos of it in the condition it arrived in would kill all of the "I'm right you're wrong" stuff. Then the seller would know that the customer is right and that the damage was caused after his shipment of the case. Or that the seller is correct and it didn't arrive with the damage as stated. Not that its worth anything but, IMO the seller is still responsible for this shipment damage. If he packaged it correctly on his end and shipped it directly to the customer it most likely would have arrived in good shape.

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Russ,

You screwed the pooch, by the numbers and you know it. Deny it all that you want, it just makes it worse for your reputation and you can not deny that you made a mistake. So by not refunding all the money, including duties, and shipping your reputation is justly damaged. Did you expect him to pay near a hundred dollars to look at the case? It got there as damaged goods because you did not pack it properly and send it directly to him.

The packaging was so bad that no claim against the shipper could be made. This is a shippers mistake that sounds like was mostly the fault of the first reciever but you are responsible for his actions. You sent the case to him so he is you problem if he did not take care of the package. If you had packaged the case only in paper as described then it is still your error. A heavy case like that need several layers of cardboard to protect it in shipping.

It is not the buyers fault that the item was diverted to another person and then arrived damaged. You had an obligation to ship it directly to him and make sure it arrived undamaged by packing it properly. You did neither, did you? You did not want to loose any money because of your mistake but your loss now will be many times greater because you have damaged your own reputation.

It is not the buyers fault for posting the facts here. And the basic facts are not really in dispute. You can try to split hairs about weither all the faults are that bad, but the major fault is yours for not getting a paid in full item to the buyer in as described shape. You did not commit fraud, like you are posting about the KY seller you got screwed by, but you also did not deliver the goods and then did not deal with it like a man and bite the bullet.

I would not know you if I saw you and suspect that as a rule you are a decent person and seller but I will not be very interested in any guns that you have for sale. This transaction does not speak well for your actions. And your postings here will do nothing to correct the situation.

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"Regardless of how much he paid for the case it was his the moment you received the money and not to be used for shipping another customers goods. You were wrong morally if not legally to use it in said fashion."

Actually, I think if you were to ask a lawyer, he would say that title passes when the inspection period lapses, or sooner if the customer says he is keeping it. And I had ten days to ship the item from the date of sale. It shipped to Canada on day 7. But I agree, it wasn't very smart of me to ship the case via CA, and I won't pull that stunt again. However, that's not the major issue here. The issue is Mr. Vella stated that the interior of the case was all torn up. It wasn't when it left here, it wasn't when it got to CA, and it wasn't when it left CA. And the case was empty between CA and Canada. (And Mr Harrell, if he had sent pictures, even ONE, to substantiate his claim, I would have taken care of it on the spot..but for all the time he has invested in this smear campaign, he has never taken the time to do that).

"And the basic facts are not really in dispute." Yes they are. Very much so.

Last edited by doublegunhq; 02/10/07 05:24 AM.

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Maybe in your mind, but not to many of the readers on the bbs. You screwed up and should let it die. The more you post here, claiming that you are right, the less inclined others will be to give you the benefit of the doubt. Let it die a natural death and this subject will be on page 4 in two days. Keep posting and it will remain near the top for a week and you will suffer in the long run.

You screwed up and are just unwilling to let it alone and nothing you post will change the fact that your shipping it to CA was a mistake, a major mistake. You may have not even seen the other internal issues but when the case arrived in less than expected shape due to poor packaging you lost all the high ground in this issue. It was shipped poorly packaged and went a route that even you would not try again. Right? Now if the CA person failed to repackage it properly you are still at fault as he was acting as your agent. And if you failed to package it properly yourself, knowing that it was going to be shipped twice after being opened once in route it is still your fault.

I find no reason to doubt the locks or keys also. A new buyer would not be expected to replace the locking system. Maybe your CA buyer damaged them. Maybe you did not notice them being damaged. But do not expect us to belive the buyer replaced them unless there were bad. That is not a logical action and the buyer seems logical in his posting.

You should have eaten the shipping both ways and the duties. It is not the buyers fault that it got there damaged. It is not his fault that you needed a case. Sometimes when you are in bussiness you have to loose a few dollars because of things that you do or mistakes you make.

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Gentlemen, I have no intention of getting into a "Pi$$ing match" over this. I will say a few things. AT NO TIME did Mr. Gould offer a refund other than the $25 credit which I mentioned. My description of the damages to the case is 100% accurate and was witnessed by several people here. I did not expect "PERFECTION" as he suggests. Oh, and by the way, I still have the invoice in my files, from Americase, for the keys, lock, and felt, for fifty some odd US dollars. Would any reasonable person go to that trouble and expense to justify a lie?. Also, every single word that was exchanged between Mr. Gould and me is saved in "sent items" on my computer. "The truth shall set ye free!". And it's been 3 months, not 6 months as Mr. Gould states above. I gave my valid reasons for the delay and the fact that his posting about someone else's poor treatment of him, reminded me of my tardiness in this matter. If this were a "smear campaign", I would have been at it from the get go!

Last edited by Ron Vella; 02/10/07 06:20 AM.
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Personnally, I don't care what the purchaser said to the seller but for the seller to sell the case, accept the money and then use that case to send guns to someone else and then expect the case to be properly packed and sent on its way is rediculous and I don't care what the seller thinks is correct legally. I would have been pi$$ed off too and the 'customer from hell'. I only deal with reputable individuals and in this case (pun intended), its open and shut. -Dick

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