doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com LC Smith on GA

Gentlemen,

I am working towards getting a magnum sxs, either Fox or Smith, to take out on special hunts, etc. The acquisition will be waiting until after I finish an MBA program later this year, but I am looking around and trying to learn.

I saw a Crown Grade Smith on GA, listed as a Long Range model and it looks like the flats were stamped 3" Chambers or similar. Haven't seen one in Crown Grade, and just wanted some thoughts from people who know more than I do with respect to pricing, and without trying to offend anyone, especially if the seller is on here...legitimacy. There are so many things being sold that aren't as represented, and I can't believe the online gun business hasn't seen it's share of that as well.

Appreciate any help or insights you could offer.

Even if you purchase a long range marked Smith or HE super Fox you may be aware that shooting modern 3" shells in it would not be a good idea at all. Bobby

I figured it would be hand loads or things like tungsten matrix in 2 3/4....but expound on that a bit if you would...are the barrels not strong enough to take the pressures?

I would think that the HE particularly could handle 3" lead...no steel at all...

Like I said, learning.....thanks for the help

I have owned 7 HEs and a number of 3" LCs and heavy Parkers over the past 30 years. I currently own 3 HEs and one Long Range Smith and one #3 frame 34" Parker all with 3" 12 gauge chambers. I have no hestitation in using modern 3" Kent TM or Bismuth loads in them and do so as often as I can take them waterfowling. As these guns were developed to exploit the then new Western 3" 1 3/8 oz magnum loads (which were very stout indeed- I have shot them many times) I do not see what the fuss is about if the gun is in good condition and kept tight. Having said that my usual load is 1 3/8 oz of #4 Bismuth in a 2 3/4" case because I have a lot of them "in stock". I do avoid 1 5/8 oz loads in 3" 12 gauge mostly because they pattern poorly in my guns. As Burt Becker said, "...don't crowd the load". Good Luck on your quest.

Cody or LCSCA letter is step one in purchasing such a gun.

The introduction of progressive burning smokeless powders, such as DuPont Oval, to shotgun shells in the early 1920s, allowed the ammunition manufacturers to move a 1 1/4 ounce load of shot out at a higher velocity than previously possible with the existing bulk or dense smokeless powders, and do it at lower pressure. According to DuPont Smokeless Shotgun Powder bookelets in my library, and a load of ammunition company catalogues from 1903 on, the heaviest loads offered by the North American ammo companies in 12-gauge 2 3/4 inch and longer cases was 3 1/2 drams bulk smokeless powders (DuPont or Schultze) or 28-grains of dense smokeless powder, such as Ballistite, and 1 1/4 ounce of shot. According to the DuPont booklets, these loads developed 11,700, 11,800 and 12,600 pounds pressure. Their new DuPont Oval progressive burning smokeless moved that 1 1/4 ounce of shot out at a higher velocity and only about 9600 pounds.

In some of my old sporting books from the early 20th century, the authors mentioned that they thought the 3 1/2 dram, 1 1/4 ounce load was too hot and advocated the 3 1/4 dram 1 1/4 ounce load as the max 12-gauge load.

At any rate, I'm sure in my mind that the metal of the HE-Grade Super-Fox is plenty strong to hold modern SAAMI spec shells, but is the 70 to 90 year old wood in the head of the stock up to the recoil of heavy payloads at high velocity? In the 1960s to 80s, I shot lots of 1 5/8 ounce 3-inch magnums out of my Super-Fox. When I first got it in 1963, it came with 2 1/2 boxes of pre-WW-II Remington Arrow Express 1 5/8 ounce 3-inch loads. So, this 17 year old never thought a thing about shooting the 1 5/8 ounce, and heavier, loads from it. I shot quite a few patterns with the gun and found it shot super tight patterns with the 1 5/8 ounce loads of #4 or #5 shot, but when I tried the 1 7/8 ounce loads I got holes in the patterns I could throw my Brittany through. That at least kept me using the 1 5/8 ounce loads as my heaviest.

Actually, the 12-gauge 3-inch MAGNUM shell with 1 5/8 ounce of shot didn't come out until 1935 when Winchester/Western introduced it along with their Model 12 Heavy Duck 12-gauge pump gun for 3-inch shells.

The best bet is to get the serial number (and if the seller won't give you that, and verify that they match on ALL so marked parts of the gun, WALK AWAY) and get a Cody letter direct to you- it will be well worth the $60.00

I do not have a Specialty, Eagle or Crown LONGRANGE Smith, most of the LONGRANGE Smiths were produced in Field and possibly Ideal Grade, some with 30" and some with 32" barrels, most, as with the majority of Field grade 12 Smiths, were double trigger and extractor guns-

I do not doubt the quality of the design or metallurgy of the Smith guns, I am a big fan of LC Smiths (most of mine are 12 pre-1913 ejector guns) BUT the wood, the sidelocks and the greater felt recoil of today's 3" loads--I would take any Smith that you might purchase that has intact buttstock, and have a good gunsmith like Dewey Vicknair or Jerry Andrews or Buck Hamlin acra-glas reinforce the stock head to insure against splits and stress fractures from heavy loads.

I slightly know the gentleman who has the Crown 12 on GB- he does a first class job of describing all his guns for sale. I am a person who dwells on details and "getting it right" and I appreciate any seller who takes the time to completely describe a gun he is offering. I can't speak as to the price range, as a Crown grade Smith is "out of my league" unless the Prize Patrol pulls into my driveway with a certified check as big as a billboard--

The Crown Grade was a special order gun. You could order it any way you liked, (within reason). Most had ejectors and the Hunter One Trigger, which were an option. The Longrange/Wildfowl was an option also, I think for $5.00 more.
This Crown Grade you saw on GB has the re-inforced splinter, a nice feature which is designed as a shock absorber for the barrel loop.
The letter states it is a Longrange, most lower grades have the word Longrange or Wildfowl marked on the barrel lug. They were only made in 12 ga and on a Regular Frame. I believe most had 32" barrels and their claim to fame was taking ducks and geese up to 80 yards clean.
These guns were advertised as having a different choke for this type of longrange shooting, but the one I have doesn't show this, but has .042 contriction in both barrels, and is bored .729.
There are also some Longrange and Wildfowl that do not have 3" chambers, and most seem to be the Wildfowl.

Thanks for all of the help so far.

I didn't consider the effect on the wood, though I wasn't anticipating shooting the heaviest loads available.

If you got this gun, and planned on hunting it, I would immediately have the head of the stock glassed. After that, if a competent gunsmith gave it an evaluation and approved it's use, I would recommend shooting it with whatever you want. If it were mine, and I wanted to shoot something hard to kill, I would limit myself to a good handload of 1-3/8oz nice shot or 1-1/2oz lead. I currently never go over 1-1/4oz nice shot as it gives me a killing pattern out to 45 yards.