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Sidelock
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Is there anyone out there who might have some answers on the crowns... perhaps from the Euro contingent, or Russia, perhaps?

Geno?

I hope to hear something - this has becomevery interesting, in my opinion.

Regards

GKT


Texas Declaration of Independence 1836 -The Indictment against the dictatorship, Para.16:"It has demanded us to deliver up our arms, which are essential to our defence, the rightful property of freemen, and formidable only to tyrannical governments."
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Asked a German friend who in turn asked a collector friend. Herr Klemens says the big crown ia an old English proofmark and the other is a German proofmark used since 1945.

I am including the actual email for your reference. I had to change some letters because they showed as gibberish:

Hallo Biene,

nichts einfacher als dies:

GroSe Kronen: fruhe englische BeschuSzeichen (English proof from early time!)

Die weiteren Pragungen sind deutsche BeschuSzeichen bis 1945. (The other, Germany since 1945)

Adler = VorbeschuS 1. (Eagle = Proof)
Adler mit Krone U: EndbeschuS 2. (Eagle over crown = Final Proof 2)
Krone S: Schrotlauf (normal)
Krone W: Schrotlauf mit Wurgebohrung (I think this has something to do with the drilling barrel)

Da mussten evtl. noch Zeichen fur das BeschuSjahr vorhanden sein.

Beste GruSe

Klemens"

Ich bin der Kurier gerecht!
JC(AL)


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"Herr Klemens says the big crown ia an old English proofmark and the other is a German proofmark used since 1945"
That doesn't really explain their presence on a Ca 1900 German gun built for sale in the USA (Krupp Bbls). I do not believe VL&D imported their Sauer's via England & it is 45 years too early for the other.
Incidently, though I read no German, if i am decifering right the Krone W (Crown over W??) means the bbl to which it is applied has a choke bore (this is found on both bbls of the Sauer/VL&D Double) & has nothing at all to do with whether it is a drilling.
In short I believe Herr Klemens missed this one.


Miller/TN
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Miller, I am the translator for the "drilling"part. Herr Klemens has nothing to do with
translating; I got something actually referring to choke from a German/Spanish dictionary I have, sorry.

I am asking why an English proofmark would get put on a Deutsch waffen.

Will inform.

JC(AL)


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Could one of those crowns be a grade stamp? david

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Friends:

I am pretty familiar both with German and English proofmarks.
The crowns are definitely not English.

Ich glaube, dass der Gn├Ądiger Herr ein Fehler gemacht hat.

Crown over U is "Untersuch├╝ngsstempel" , literally "examination stamp" or "inquiry stamp ", more comfortably rendered into English - final proof mark.

Crown over S , with "S" likely denoting "Schrot", or "shot", in English, it is the mark applied to smoothbore barrels.

Crown over W , "W├╝rgebohrung" or choke- bored, is the mark applied top choked barrels.

Wirnsberger says "Crown over U" ceased with the proof law of 1939. Apparently, so did the other marks. The Federal Eagle began being used in 1952.

Next theory?

Regards

GKT

Last edited by Greg Tag; 02/05/07 09:56 PM.

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FWIW I have a J P Sauer & Sohn 16ga hammerless made in 1903 with the same crowns, one on each flat. This gun is a typical lower grade gun produced for local sales, sling swivels, cheekpiece on stock. I would guess it made it to the US in a duffelbag after WWII.

Jim A.


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Some observations:

The word "bis" in German does not mean "since". It means "until" or "before". So what Herr Klemens said about the "weiteren Pra"gungen" is right. They are German proofmarks that were used before 1945.

But I can't agree with him about the big crown's being an English proofmark. I have no proof that that is wrong. I only have my pretty strong belief on the matter.

Another thing that I would like to state is that the Crown/W was not placed under every choked barrel. In the case of side by sides the Crown/W was sometimes stamped on the flat under each barrel, but sometimes it was only stamped on the flat under the more fully choked barrel.

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The question still remains as to "IF" it was infact a proof mark. It is found in no list of marks I have access to, including Wirnsberger, Kennet, Englehardt, Greener's 1910 edition etc & seems to be on few if any guns of makers other than J P Sauer, which leads one to think it is some sort of proprietery stamp & not a proof mark. "IF" it is indeed a proof mark what proof does it indicate?? We have reference to what all the others are for.


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At this point I agree with Miller. I went through every thing I had. I even looked at Prussian, Hungarian, Austrian, Czech etc and there was nothing that resembled that 1st crown. There seems to be lettering in the crown. I am guessing that if you figure that the rest falls into place.

On Belgian and Spanish guns, a makers trademark is often stamped. Some times these are simple, a couple of initials, some times they are very complex and ornate. These marks change over time.

Pete

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