doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion German & Austrian Sporting Guns @ doublegunshop.com Sauer Triggerplate Round Action

Has anyone come across one of these before - sleek little gun:

J.P. Sauer Triggerplate Round Action, action engraved "J.P. Sauer & Son" on both sides, barrel tubes both engraved "J.P. Sauer & Son" and Krupp Steel", action water table engraved "Made in Prussia", 16 bore, 2 5/8" chambers, 26" barrels, extractor, double triggers, Greener cross-bolt, concave game rib with machine stamp pattern, top mount tang safety, weighs just over 6lbs, seller thinks it was made around 1905.

At 1st glance it looks Belgian, then maybe sourced from the pool of mechanics at Zella-Mehlis. I wonder if it is a true triggerplate(not sidelock) and would really like to see the proofs. I'm curious if it is based on this patent(Societe Anonyme Fabrique Nationale d'Armes de Guerre 15236(British??) for 1906) :

http://books.google.com/books?id=mPZYAAA...gun&f=false

Peter, can you oblige me and pull the image to post it here? The pin configuration seems to match???



Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Impressive sleuthing, Raimey. That is an interesting action design. With the trigger acting as the hammer sear, I would imagine the trigger pulls should be very crisp. But it looks like the mainspring is attached to the barrel lump, so how do you break the gun down?

It looks like there is a small projection coming through the trigger plate ahead of the trigger in the diagram - this would match a similar projection shown in the photo.

Thanks, but considering that steel and gunmaking centers propagated technology by sharing technology, the find might well be assumed. The relationship between gunmaking centers is much more stringent that we might want to admit. Always remember Belgian labour was cheap and they had embraced mechanization early on making the center a choice of sourcing. I was hoping Peter might find the original Belgian patent, but then again I haven't searched myself( GB000190615236A - Belgium Patent date - July 11th, 1905 ), and it would be a few years earlier. But, um I'm still not convinced the sourced Sauer & the patent are one in the same. But we shall see.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

All right, had to use the brute force approach, but I'm a bit more persuaded:





GB000190615236A - Belgium Patent date - July 11th, 1905

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Gentlemen,

incidentally, two days ago a very good friend from Chattanooga, TN showed me photos of a twin of the gun in question. I also saw photos with stock removed, markings on the barrel flats, the receiver and some more features.

Features of the other gun are:

SN: 1917xx
Markings: the usual German markings. No crown/N, no �Nitro� (at least, not visible on the photos), no Belgian proofs.
Safety: �SAFE� (not �SICHER); automatic safety
Sauer markings: �J. P. SAUER & SON� on both sides of the receiver, one big crown on barrel flat of left barrel, �MADE IN PRUSSIA� on the receiver, as well as a workers mark �WA� in oval. �Krupp Fluid steel� on the barrels.
Action: Blitz type action with hammers mounted on trigger plate. The hammers do have quiet large �hammer� heads � nothing I�ve seen before. And not comparable to those of the FN patent shown.
Barrel lugs: very unusual and nothing I�ve seen before (at least, not on Sauers).

I estimate manufacture of the other gun (it�s definitely a different gun) around 1912 approximately.

Now: my very good friend and I discussed this gun, as we both haven�t seen before such a Sauer. I see three possibilities for an explanation:

1/an unknown Sauer model
2/ a period fake of an other maker trying to sell his shotgun(s) as Sauers
3/ an �adopted child�

Regarding #3: Sauer in fact adopted some guns: for example, Sauer both (high class) special guns (like double rifle drillings with side locks) from Oskar Merkel or Emil Kerner in the white, added barrels and the Sauer markings and sold them as Sauers. But I�m not aware of any �adopted children� yet from the lower end�.

Hum. Very interesting guns, at least.

Regards

Martin
P.S: Sorry, can�t show photos of the other gun.

Martin - very interesting. I am trying to get pics of the marks on this gun and will post as soon as I do.

Are you willing to comment on the fit and finish quality of that other gun?

Safe, Son & Steel are all interesting terms. Any marks fore or aft of the Krupp Steel stamp? With the Large Crown it would seem that Sauer sourced the gesteck & completed it. But for now the English terms along with the sporting weapon imply a Belgian origin. Any SuS or Wildmann touchmarks?

Does Mr. Cate own it by chance?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Hi Doverham,

Well, the finish seems to be a little better than the other gun. Fit�. Well, it�s a low budget gun. At least, below the Sauer standards of the time.



Hi Raimey,

No, Mr Cate doesn�t own the gun. Unfortunately. Otherwise, I probably would be allowed to post photos.

Anyway: there�s no �wild man with club� logo present. No other marks after the Krupp steel present (the Krupp markings are the ordinary ones).

Regards

Martin

Gentlemen,

meanwhile I received permission to post photos of the �other� Sauer with that odd Blitz action. So, here are the photos of SN 191764:





















Regards

Martin