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keith Offline OP
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I just bought a pre-1899 antique Lefever on an internet auction site and the seller is requiring that an FFL copy is provided for shipping to the FFL dealer. It is easily verified that this gun is truly pre-1899 via the LACA website production dates list, and other sources such as the Elliot books.

This has happened to me before and my FFL dealer claims that he has to run the instant check and enter the gun in his books since the seller has transferred the gun from his books. Of course, there is a charge for this that I have to factor into the total amount I wish to pay for a particular gun. If that was true and an FFL dealer entered a replica black powder gun into his books, would every subsequent sale of that replica through an FFL require the Instant Check and form 4478 transfer? To me, this is akin to buying a bicycle on e-bay and having the seller require a copy of my drivers license and registration of the bicycle from my State Dept. of Motor Vehicles.


A true sign of mental illness is any gun owner who would vote for an Anti-Gunner like Joe Biden.

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I just decided a long time ago to avoid all this crap and buy locally or only from online dealers that at least accept and understand C&Rs. Many of these "Gunbroker" sellers are clueless as to the regulations and, to me, it isn't worth arguing with them. By the time you pay shipping,insurance and for an unnecessary FFL transfer it usually isn't worth it.
Jim


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Keith,
The answer is no. Your FFL dealer does not have to enter the transfer in his book. The book is required only for firearms and this shotgun, in the eyes of the BATFE, is not a firearm. Since this isn't a firearm, no check is required either. I know this because I just picked up my FFL, after months of hassle with the town board, so it's still fresh in my memory. To back this up, I've got a friend who's been selling guns for years, and is also a lawyer, who has instructed me along these lines as well.
I would ask my FFL to simply send them a copy. Don't bother entering it at all, or enter it with a note stating it's an antique. At that point he has no further requirements according to the law. I doubt you'll get the seller to back down, just from past experience.
Luck,
Jim

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keith Offline OP
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Thanks for the replies thus far. I was 99.9% sure that the answer from JimfromTrafalgar was the correct one because my old FFL guy would accept shipment of the antique gun and give it to me without the paperwork and check required for a post 1898 firearm. That still meant two twenty mile trips to his shop... one for the FFL copy, and one to pick up the gun.

Does anyone know where I could access a copy of this portion of the law to prove my point? I can understand where some FFL's would wish to err on the side of caution, and naturally, most do not have a firearms library or data to show when a particular gun was made. But I have offered proof of manufacture date to a couple sellers who remained obstinate. Like italiansxs, I mostly choose not to deal with them. If the total of my bid, plus shipping, plus an unnecessary FFL transfer fee, plus the extra hassle amounts to less than I could buy the same gun for locally, then I may go for it. Quite a few have lost my business because they wish to act like some Banana Republic dictator.


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If it's in some place like NJ, an FFL is still required AFAIK. The State law does not ackn the Fed Antique Status there (nor C&R). Other States have similar laws. NY does not ackn Antique Status of a cartridge handgun (one very grey area about obsolete chamberings aside).

But you're most probably up against an FFL that wants to dazzle the compliance agents with paperwork when they come knocking.
As already stated, you probably can't convince him otherwise.

Most FFL's are in extreme CYA mode as of the last few years.
Their call, their license.
I've always figured just following the printed rules was a good tactic.

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keith Offline OP
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This particular gun is coming from Kalifornia, and the seller just e-mailed a reply to my question about this. He said, "this gun was taken in under our state system and is on our A&D books as a firearm, and it need to leave our store as a firearm through a licensed dealer." So perhaps someone could tell me if Kommunist Kalifornia has special rules that exceed Federal firearms statutes pertaining to antiques such as Kutter references. There was some confusion on shipping charges and he was quick to rectify that, so at least he's not being obstinate.

I'd at least like to be able to educate my current FFL guy so he could simply accept the package and hand it to me without unnecessary B.S., and then I could toss him a $10 or $15 tip like I did with my now retired buddy.


A true sign of mental illness is any gun owner who would vote for an Anti-Gunner like Joe Biden.

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Like Jim posted, you might consider a C&R (and you don't even need that for a antique firearm but at least he "might" send you the gun),and check before bidding with some of these dealers that are not interested in business from buyers with C&R's or in your case reading antique firearms rules.

Here is the ATF definition of antique,who knows or cares what those Liberal aholes in Kalif's definition is but federally your fine with it getting shipped to you-they may want a proof of age (DL) but ,again this should be spelled out before bidding.


http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/collectors.html

"What qualifies as an antique firearm?

As defined in 18 U.S.C. § 921(a)(16) the term “antique firearm” means —



any firearm (including any firearm with a matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system) manufactured in or before 1898;"

and from the G/B site for shipping

"'Antique' firearms need not be shipped to a licensed dealer. These can be shipped directly to the buyer. An antique firearm is a firearm built in or before 1898, or a replica thereof."


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I can say as a dealer, many dealers dont know the law. I sell on the internet and get buyers that have dealers refusing to send me an FFL unitl I send them a copy of mine. When asked why, they say that they want to make sure I am an FFL before they send theirs. I guess they think someone will do ?????

I have had other dealers try to tell me that a mauser reciever doesnt require an FFL. "its not a comeplet gun" they say.

I could go on. Same for UPS, Post office etc. too many people dont know the law.

I sell and ship to C&R all the time any gun that meets the criteria.

Very frustrating at times.


Brian
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Those that know say "C&R OK" for 50+. Those that don't say "FFL required" and you can bet they mean 01. As for pre-98 and bp, I haven't encountered many who think more is required than an address and postage.

jack

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keith Offline OP
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Thanks again for the replies. I just went to the link Dave K provided and found the ATF Federal Firearms Regulations Reference Guide (2005), and spent about an hour skimming over that. Under General Questions, pg.175 Question A3: Do antique firearms come within the purview of the GCA? The answer is simply "No". I do plan to study this area in more detail, but it sure looks as though dealers who enter Antique guns in their bound books are doing something they are not legally required to do. I can't even find anthing that requires a simple notation in the bound book of the fact that an acquisition is an "Antique". I think I'll call the ATF Field Office for my state to make sure I'm reading things correctly.

How we can politely inform, and educate, and otherwise convince dealers that this is unnecessary is another story. I guess it wouldn't hurt a thing to make a simple notion in the book as Jim mentioned, but going through the whole rigamarole of NICS check and 4473 form is just additional expense and hassle. I have considered going the C&R route, but as noted here in the past, too many 01's won't deal with them in the manner prescribed by law.


A true sign of mental illness is any gun owner who would vote for an Anti-Gunner like Joe Biden.

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