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Joined: Aug 2005
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Geo. Newbern - I don't know if you read the articles or not, but your posts seem to indicate an assumption that Gibson is guilty of violating laws (forgive me if I mis-read). If that were the case I would agree with you, but the point here is that there is NO evidence that Gibson has broken any law. Some may not realize that this is the SECOND time the Feds have raided Gibson in less than 2 years. In late 2009 they raided Gibson and seized a shipment of ebony along with a group of guitars. There was no evidence then of any wrong-doing on Gibson's part, and to date the DOJ has yet to file any charges against them, YET they continue to hold the wood and instruments in confiscation and Gibson has been forced to SUE the DOJ to get their property returned. In the latest raid, it appears that no US or International laws were broken, and IF any law were broken it was an Indian law, yet it was India who cleared the shipment for sale and apparently couldn't care less. Gibson would have no way of knowing that an Indian law might have been broken (one that has NOTHING to do with protection of endangered wood, by the way), especially when the shipment was sanctioned by the Indian govt. In case it isn't known, Gibson is one of the founding members of the Alliance that was formed between Suppliers and Manufacturers to set forth the rules to be followed to protect these endangered woods and provide a sustainable resource for them (Taylor Guitars is another). In other words, they were instrumental in forming the plan to begin with.

Last edited by vh20; 08/26/11 10:08 PM.
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Geo. Newbern - Your posts also seem to indicate that you don't have a problem with the Feds' raid on Gibson. Or maybe I wrongly read between the lines.

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IIRC Ted Nugent plays a Gibson. Being he's an NRA member the Feds probably don't like Gibson. I have a set of ebony grips on a 1911 Colt .45 they can take from my cold dead hands.


Practice safe eating. Always use a condiment.
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Originally Posted By: Craigster
Geo. Newbern - Your posts also seem to indicate that you don't have a problem with the Feds' raid on Gibson. Or maybe I wrongly read between the lines.


Nah, I don't assume Gibson is guilty of anything. I do recognize spin when I see it. I do it for a living. I know I spin the hardest when I'm against the wall. Maybe they've been dealing in illegal wood maybe not. All I'm saying is there's nothing wrong with the law. It will play itself out on it's own...Geo

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Originally Posted By: Geo. Newbern
....All I'm saying is there's nothing wrong with the law. It will play itself out on it's own...Geo


Any opinion on the selective application of the law. How about skirting law by regulation. I don't believe this forum has so many questions about lead bans and nontoxic load data just to save the condor.

In the short term all that's important is for the check to clear from the fine. Over the long haul, they'll take little bits at a time. Sorry to misfire on the wrong forum, but there does seem to be something wrong.

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Originally Posted By: J.R.B.
IIRC Ted Nugent plays a Gibson. Being he's an NRA member the Feds probably don't like Gibson. I have a set of ebony grips on a 1911 Colt .45 they can take from my cold dead hands.


Ted Nugent doesn't have to play a Gibson to turn people off, opening his mouth is usually enough. But that is quite a leap from him to Feds to Gibson. There are exceptions to CITES and the Endangered Species Act's bans on importation of endangered woods and ivories. The ban is on possession of ivory imported after a fixed date. Documented “Pre-Convention” (aka Pre-Ban) items can be exempted from regulation. A CITES “Permit/Certificate”, issued by the country of origin’s “Management Authority” is required to export Pre-Ban ivory such as tusks, art,schrimshaw or whale teeth to another country.
There have been prosecutions resulting in huge fines regarding the possession of Sperm Whale teeth illegally obtained from Russian Whalers in the past few years. There's big business in high-end schrimshaw and some of these teeth have been falsely marketed as antique which drives the prices sky high among unknowing collectors. Ebony and Ivory..cold dead hands? Mixing songs and bumper stickers? wink

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One more example of why we need to trim the size of the Federal Government and it's authority.


bc
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I'll let them pry this beauty from my cold dead hands. In actuality it is all perfectly legal tonewoods with paperwork. But I would never take this instrument abroad







-Clif Watkins

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When the government starts raiding companies or people, confiscating their property and holding it for years without charges, then does it again something is majorly wrong. If they did this to you wold you lay down and whimper like a beaten dog? No, you would growl like a dog who does not like being abused. If there are no charges then the government has to return the property, end of argument, end of case. In fact they should have to pay damages. People in power should be held accountable not excused as just doing their jobs. Concentration camp guard claimed that they were just doing their jobs. Their cases were not dismissed because of this and they were found just a guilty as those who confessed their actions. Doing your job is not a legal defense.

The raid, if needed should have been done, material checked, confiscated if needed for evidence and charges filed within a very short time. If you can not prove your case in 30, 60 or 90 days you never will. This keeping of evidence for months or years is just a smoke screen to cover up their mistake in the first place.

They had to have probable cause to get a valid search warrant under the US Constitution. What was that probable cause? Martin used wood to make guitars so they must be using illegal wood? How is that as reasonable cause? Guilt by association has never stood up in court. This is the same court system that says you can not ask a person, who does not speak English, for proof that they are here legally. Under this treatment of Martin that person would be thrown in jail and made to wait years if ever before getting a hearing. Then forced to pay thousands of dollars to get justice.

Where is due process? Where is justice? Where is the outrage against a government not protecting rights under the U.S. Constitution. Someone needs to get this type of abuse under control while there is still time.

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KY Jon:
There is a solution to your problems. Convince everyone you know NEVER to vote for another Democrat again!

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