doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Joseph Jakob, Philadelphia gunmaker...

Mr. Hallquist:
I think August Francotte, with his relations to Britian, was the Westley Richard's Belgian rep. I do not think for a moment that the sporting arms were shipped to Britian. Then there are the A&D agents/relationships with Charles Daly of Schovering, Daly & Gales. I think all adds to the overall puzzle.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Daryl,

Not sure if I have the right end of the stick here, but 'marking' i.e. stamping patent numbers on patented goods, is a requirement under many patent laws.

Nigel.

Nigel, you may be correct. I am just not up on that, but I think stamping the USE NUMBER would not be a requirement by law. So then, what was Dickson doing with it's patent use number ? I sometimes think the Patent Number and date stamps made some attraction to the potential buyer, too, but am not sure about the legal requirement to do so.

Daryl,

as far as Germany is concerned: currently, I found no evidence about existence of a German patent for WR (A&D, respectively). If this should be confirmed (takes some days until I will have the time to make a �dusty paper� search in a library): no patent � no license needed, no license agreement. But let�s see.




Nigel,

sorry, but under most Patent Laws there�s no requirement for using patent numbers, indications like �Patented�, �patent pending� or the like. As mentioned earlier in connection with British Patent Act of 1883:

"So it is immaterial whether the defendant was aware that the thing was patented or not, since in law every person in the realm is taken to have notice of a patent in the same way that he is taken to be aware of the law".

This is true for most Patent Laws. The US provisions regarding usage of patent numbers or other appropriate indications to inform competitors about the existence of a patent are an exemption, but not the rule.

Regards

Martin

Martin, I wonder how close we can come to understanding the German/A and D relationship. Something that has always been a question in my mind is the wide use of the Greener safety and crossbolt on German guns. Some would say the practice was an avoidance of the A and D license cost. As we remember , Greener was sued by Deeley [WR] and the eventual outcome, after years, was that Greener was not guilty of patent infringement on the A and D 1875 [and later] patent. Does this relate in any way to the common use of the Greener crossbolt and safety in German guns ?

I have a blank stare for the moment, but are there any Lindner Daly, or Auguste Francotte sourced, with only the lower scears with the permission use number/Action Patent Use Number on the standing breech? Don't know where we are without a thorough re-read but it appears that the A&D Brevet/Patent permission use numbers/Action Patent Use Number are for the combo of the overhanging scear with the lower intercepting. Anyone know the upper and lower scear A&D patent right off-hand?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

I've glance back thru the thread and some other info and it sure looks like the sporting weapons that wear the A&D Brevet/Patent permission use/Action Patent Use Number stamp have ties to either Charles Daly or Auguste Francotte and have upper & lower pins/screws. I was looking for some info on Jan Novotny(1839-1893), who Dr. Vladimir Dolinck gives as the nephew of Mathias Novotny, and found 3 DR examples supplied to King William III and the details can be found in DGJ Winter 2006 at page 47 and DGJ Spring 2007 at page 55. Serial numbers are 6437, 6457 & 6495 and I assume to be that of Novotny's. They all are very similar with carbon copies for safety slides and Westley Richards leverwork or broad toplevers that interfaces with the doll's head; pretty much clones at a glance. Novotny #6457 has some Belgian proofs as well as Auguste Francotte's stamp on each flat. The other 2 have stamps similar to the early Ferlach stamps prior to the Austro-Hungarian proof rules. But Novotny #6457 has upper & lower pins and has the inverted Anson & Deeley Patent stamp with permission use #1002 while neither of the other very similar DRs has an upper screw or the Action Patent Use Number. I'm fairly confident that the mechanics at Ferlach sourced the Belgians for tubes or the tubeset and then J. Novotny acquired them in the white state at the very least. Here we have 3 Novotny DR examples supplied to the same client with the only difference is the version with the upper pin which in turn has the Anson & Deeley Patent(not Brevete) permission use number. So the question in my mind is why wouldn't the combo on the upper & lower scears not pair with the A&D permission use number and Auguste Francotte having a satellite permission use stamping station.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Charles Daly #7 has the A&D Brevete/permission use stamp #59(?? 50 something) with 1019 on the underside of the tubes as per GGCA #31 at page 20.

Mr. Hallquist, do you have any insight on the track of the first say 100 Action Patent Use Numbers?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Raimey, I am not sure of your question. I did have a two didgit Daly boxlock with the Deeley mark, but it is long gone, and at that time I was not recording such information. I do recall the profile of the gun was like the advertisements of the early 1880s. Sort of a humpback in my recollection.

Well let me rephrase then. For argument's sake, let's say Charles Daly #7 did have permission use #59. Is there any way to tell how & where the 1st 50 issues were dispersed and moreover if each satellite stamping station had or had not the same sequence as WR or A&D? I'm curious if there were multiple A&D Brevete/Patent sequences or a single? Last, any idea what the lowest permission use number in the Charles Daly offerings?


Joseph Jakob DR with permission use number 1152. Interesting on OWD's thread that a fella who indicates he is a descendant of Joseph Jakob noting Jakob was born in Bohemia in 1834 and that one of Jakob's daughter-in-laws was shot in the arm in the immaculately clean shop. Assuming it took him till age 24 to attain his master's brief pairs well with the 1859 date that some references give as the year he hung out his shingle.


Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse