doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Need help selecting first old SxS

Buck,

I love SxS's and own or have owned them from LC Smith, Parker, AH Fox, Lefever Arms, CSMC, Merkel, Winchester, Browning, Baker, Savage Arms, and Beretta. I did however start much as you are doing, that is by desiring a vintage SxS!

Here is my non-so-humble opinion;
- Beretta SxS are very good and reliable but do not, in my not-so-humble opinion, compare to the "feel" of old America SxS's.
- The Browning BSS is a very well made and reliable SxS and the 12 gauges can be found for a good price.
- Merkels, especially those made during the East German period are the best value of any SxS presently. They are however an acquired taste with their sling swivel studs and cheek pieces. Personally, I prefer quick-detachable sling swivels on a duck or turkey gun.
- Winchester Model 21's prices are down like most classic doubles under $10K. For $4k one can buy a great M21! They may however be out of your price range.
- Winchester Model 23's were made in Japan and are a very good gun. Their prices start just under $2k and climb to $3k+ for the Heavy and Light Duck models.
- SKB SxS's are in the Merkel class for reliability and VALUE! They are priced a little higher an Merkel but are also more popular. The Ithaca SxS�s of the 1980�s were made by SKB.
- Stay away from the lower end guns like Savage 311, and the slew of Turkish imports. Their first weakness will soon be found in the trigger parts which are not hardened as they should be. When they fail, and if shot much they will, you will have a heck of a time getting them fixed.

Then there are the classic American guns such as Parker, LC Smith, AH Fox, and Lefever Arms:
- I love shooting LC Smiths. The lower grades, post 1913 guns tend to develop cracks behind the sidelocks. This can be avoided by glass bedding (super glue works for Smith actions) and shooting only low pressure loads (under 8000 PSI). NOTE: Recoil cracks stocks and pressure loosens actions. Pressure and recoil are not mutually exclusive but one can load very potent ammunition with pressures below 8000 PSI. Modern factory ammo is optimized to function dirty autoloaders which most use pressure to cycle their actions! As for LC Smiths, I much prefer the pre-13 Grade 1 and higher! Grade 2's are a lovely gun and also a good buy. I expect to pay but 2/3 for a Smith as I would an equivilent grade Parker. But then Parkers have increased in value...
- Parkers have a somewhat complicated action but are easily repairable by anyone with decent mechanical skills. If you have changed a head gasket on a V-8 engine then dissembling a Parker action should be within your skills. The previous stated, Parkers are very reliable for 100+ year old guns. Parkers do have a fault in their stocks which may crack at the head if hammered with magnum loads. This is why one will see Parkers with a bolt thru the head of the stock! As for value in today's depressed economy, Parkers have for the most part held their value. A good VH or even a good condition Trojan will serve you well. A Parker GH (Grade 2) in good condition is a heck of a great gun in looks and performance!
- AH Fox to include the Sterlingworth guns are the simplest action with the exception of the later Lefever Arms. The Fox Sterlingworths are great buys and but for fit and finish, are the same gun as the "graded" Foxes such as A, B, CE and so on. If you find an AH Fox that fits you and you like it then buy it!!!
- Lefever Arms guns, especially the later ones, are perhaps the best classic American SxS's. This is due to "Uncle" Dan Lefever being the inventor of the "automatic" hammerless action and numerous other mechanisms found in early and today's SxS's. Lefever guns were continually updated with innovations. The later guns had the fewest parts of any vintage American SxS's. Fewer action parts mean that the guns should be more reliable than more complicated actions! Lefever guns had a Fully Compensated Action meaning that they had an adjustable ball on the hinge pin that could be used to tighten the action. Why didn't other manufactures employ this wonderful feature! I have paid between $150 to $300 to have many LC Smith, Parker, and one "Super Fox" actions tightened! My Lefevers only require a slight twist of a simple tool. Smart, VERY Smart!
- The Lefever Arms DS model was a very basic later gun with fluid steel barrels. The DS has the same action as all later Levers minus cocking indicators. I own one in 20 gauge and much prefer it over a Parker DHE 20 worth 3x as much as the lowly DS!!! A CSMC RBL Launch 20 gauge left my safe long ago being overshadowed by this simple Lefever Arms DS.
-- PS: Lefever Nitro Specials are Ithaca guns cashing in on the Lefever name. They are good guns as are all Ithaca's but they are not Lefevers!

So, these are my opinions based on my lessons in the school of hard knocks! If you must shoot steel find a Merkel, SKB, or BSS and hammer away! Otherwise, welcome to the world of hand fitted guns made by skilled craftsmen long passed. Be advised that your first classic SxS will not be your last.

PS: I didn't mention Damascus steel barrels. This is all together another subject. Please be advised that many classic guns with the exception of those from AH Fox may have Damascus barrels. Inspect the barrels under the fore end where the bluing will be worn. If you see any hint of a pattern in the steel the barrels are probably Damascus or twist steel that someone has blued. If Damascus or twist steel is in good condition, and from a quality maker they should be safe to shoot with low pressure loads. DISCLAIMER: Have a competent SxS gunsmith measure the barrel wall thickness!!! Any 100+ year old gun with "perfect" bores may have been honed or ever reamed to remove pitted areas. Most guns from around 1890 and later have bores within a few thousands (of an inch) of its maker's standard, i.e. LC Smith 12 gauges have bores of .729" or a couple thousands smaller.
- I keep my working loads for Damascus around 6000 PSI. Loading for this would however complicate shooting that classic gun if you are not a avid handloader. Perhaps one should start with a SxS with fluid steel barrels and leave all those beautiful Damascus barrels for me!!!

Respectfully,
Mark

You sometimes can find Birmingham made, box lock nonejectors in that price range. The dimensions will be more shootable than many classic American guns, other than the stock may be a bit short. Most likely would be a 2.5in chamber gun, but shells can be ordered from RST and others.

Otherwise, plenty of other good advice here.

Nice condition, not much money.
http://www.cabelas.com/product/Gun-Library/American-Shotguns%7C/pc/103792680/c/103581180/Fulton-Hunter-12-Gauge-SXS/1166591.uts?destination=%2Fcatalog%2Fbrowse%2Fgun-library-american-shotguns%2F_%2FN-1103060%2FNo-48%2FNs-CATEGORY_SEQ_103581180%3FWTz_l%3DUnknown%253Bcat103792680%26WTz_st%3DGuidedNav%26WTz_stype%3DGNP&WTz_l=Unknown%3Bcat103792680%3Bcat103581180

Wow Mark. Your thread was very well thought out and informative.

My advice...

Do your best to figure out what you want and then be patient until you find a good deal on a solid gun.

I've found over the years that my preference is for old American made doubles, and more specifically for the Baker side by side shotguns. I love the sidelock design and how well made and solid the old Baker guns are. In my eyes they are as beautiful as they are functional. And for me it's as much about the history and the heritage as it is about the individual gun.

That kind of stuff may not matter to you though, or your likes may take a completely different path. But if you do have definite opinions on certain qualities that you want or feel you might enjoy in an old double, then pay special attention to that criteria as you look. If you don't then your purchase may end up being unsatisfying after it's all said and done.

Be patient and find a solid gun in safely shootable condition. Don't jump on something that's "almost solid" just because it's cheap... Trust me, it ain't a good deal!

That being said, I'll put my plug in for the Baker guns. Especially if your interests lean more toward the American vintage doubles.

For now the Baker guns have less collector interest than the Parkers, LC Smiths, Foxes, Lefevers, and Ithacas. So you can usually find a comparable Baker for considerably less than you'd pay for one of the others. Quality-wise they are every bit the equal of the others and in my experience they exceed the durability of a few. You should be able to find a very nice Baker made Batavia Special for considerably less than your price limit and may even be able to find a higher grade for $1000 or less.

Do LOTS of research, ask LOTS of questions, and handle as many guns as you can as you fine-tune your decision.

Mark,

Lots of well-represented info, but I must take exception to the above statement. While it may be true of the Turkish guns - with which I have no experience - it certainly is not true of the Stevens guns, which are among the more robust out there; I've seen many that were rode hard and put up wet that are still functioning as intended. And even if they're not, they're easily fixed.

Fin

Fin,

I didn't mean to offend you. Your 311 may be function flawlessly after hard abuse as many do. If you like your 311 and it likes you that's great!

There are however far, far too may 311's gracing the benches of our local gunsmiths. The problems is nearly always triggers. The single trigger guns have mroe problems than do the those with double triggers. Years ago I owned a double trigger 311 with a trigger problem. More recently I've witnessed a 311 which would not open. Try opening a 311 that decides its too worn to play any more!

The 311's are good guns but overall they are not as reliable as a near-100 year old LC Smith field grade or Sterlingworth. Also, some of the lower priced modern Turkish guns never have a problem. Others of the same brand and model do. Perhaps this was the downfall of the S&W Elite? It was and is good quality Turkish gun but its sales were poor. Was it guilt by association?

I respectfully stand by my statement concerning the entry level SxS's, stay away from them.

Thinking about it more, dollar for dollar, a I've recently seen a few 12 gauge Sterlingworths sell at auction for less than $1k.

For $1k I'd look at a Fox Sterlingworth. To buy from auction, so long as the buyer asks many questions via email (to establish a record) and the seller has a no questions asked return policy, auctions are a great place to buy. Recently I've purchased a few desirable collector guns in advertised good but not great condition. I had them shipped to my gunsmith who inspected them for me. I advised him to return any gun not in "as described" condition. So far, he has not needed to do so.

Mark

There are lots of good German, Belgian, and Austrian guns out there in your price range.

+1. Putting a 311 in the same category as a Turkish gun isn't right. 311's are tough guns. Most were way more abused than any Fox, Parker, LC, etc. They are butt ugly, plank like, finished like a tool, but parts not hardened properly? I don't believe that for a minute. Something tells me that the Stevens Tool and Die Co. knew a little sumthin-sumthin about properly hardening steel. I've owned several 311's over the years, they've all been zero problem guns, even the 311 I bought for parts at a gunshow for $45, it looked to be a total trainwreck cosmetically, but it still worked. And I wasted my $45 cause I never needed to tear it apart for parts, none of my other 311's ever broke.

For a starter SxS shotgun, the 311 is a good choice, its what I started out with and used for many years. My 311's digested untold thousands of wally world promo loads. Back then I was shooting skeet and trap 3 nights a week and the only shotguns I owned were those 311's, I knew nothing of "low pressure" ammo, I shot what was cheap and those Savage/Stevens 311's took all that abuse and never hiccupped, none of them were loose, off "the" face, etc. I owned two with single non-selectable triggers (including the "trainwreck" gun), the single triggers were simple, robust and worked. I've never heard anyone having any sort of problems with the double triggers.

If its a higher quality gun that you seek for a bit more money, listen to Mr. Hallquist advice, plenty of very nice continental guns out there that are priced right.

Dustin

I have to second the Lefever DS suggestion as a gun to look at. They were made near the end of the Lefever production so materials are modern and most of the "improvements" to Lefevers are included. Almost all have steel barrels. Most have stocks that can be shot as is, not with the three plus inches drop of the early guns.

I found a high condition DS about three years ago for $750. I would not take twice that for the gun. I got lucky this year on a LC Smith for the same money but nine out of ten for that money will be money pits or worn out beaters. It is not the brand or the gun as much as knowing what are the normal problems and then knowing when a gun is a good value because it is correct and not some refinished, wornout piece of junk. You can find a high condition DS or a high condition NID for a grand. Much less likely to find any Parker, Smith or Fox in high condition for anywhere near that money.

NIDs are very decent guns, but some lament the styling of them. Few say that about them in small gauge, with a little engraving for some reason. Sterlingworths are solid gun and 12 can be bought in very nice condition for a grand if a later Savage made gun. Take the offer from others here and take one of them with you. Their education in what to buy and what to avoid will get you the best gun for the buck and save you thousands of buck in mistakes.

The best thing to do is to go to one of the larger gun shows where you can see a hundred double guns and look at as many of them as you can. When in doubt pass on any gun that does not look exactly like what you want. Do not settle for a gun.