doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com 16 ga L C Smith Trap grade?

85-90%,how good is it,how rare,value?

They aren't real common, the John Houchins book recorded 288 Trap Grades in 16-bore; but his recap did not break down those guns as to options, barrel length, etc. I would think 16-bore Trap Grades with 32" barrels and vent ribs might be the most rare.

Very good, very rare, and very valuable.

Anyone have an educated guess on the plentifulness of an:
L.C. Smith 2e in 16 gauge two bbl. set w/ original chain damascus bbls., and a second set of Crown Steel bbls, by L.C. Smith, serial numbered to the gun. Both sets of bbls with their own forearm.
Shot very little- primer ring visible only on the right bbl breech face.
No cracks in the wood anywhere. Well faded colors. Squished original red recoil pad, lending credence to the son of the original owner's testimony that his dad shot it very little; basically is stood in a closet most all of its life.

16-bore 2E's are relatively rare; as although the Houchins book recaps a total of 989 16-bore Grade 2's, a third or more of those guns would not have had auto-ejectors. Also, I don't know if there has been a recap done showing the number of Grade 2's originally shipped with two sets of barrels; but to see if yours originally shipped as a two-barrel set, request a research letter from the LC Smith Collectors Association (visit lcsmith.org for details). In the original shipping records all Smith guns shipped to their original owners with two or more sets of barrels will have the length of each barrel set noted within the barrel column of the appropriate shipping ledger page; but the type of barrel shipped (i.e. Damascus or steel) will not be noted. In all the instances I've seen thus far, with only one exception, Smith guns having two different type barrels were sent back to Hunter Arms sometime after the original ship date for a second set to be factory fitted. In the case of the pre-1913 Grade 2 Gun, Crown Steel barrels were always offered as standard; with Chain Damascus as optional. It would be interesting to learn if this gun did originally ship with two sets of barrels, as that would indicate the original owner opted to have his gun fitted with a set of each barrel type offered by the maker.

This one was begun in 1909, finished 1910. I believe the chain pattern damascus to be what was available at that time; not the Crown Steel. The owner's son thinks the gun was sent back once the Crown Steel bbls became available.

lcsmith.org was not helpful. They took all the information (I provided to them) and put it on their letterhead; nothing more, saying nothing more was available.

My 1905 catalog has this to say about Smith Grade 2 barrels "The new Crown Steel barrels are made specifically for this grade; ....... Wonderfully strong, they were successful from the first pair we ever used. They are made specially for us and are used exclusively by us; they are very hard, and thus not easily bent or dented. A good quality of Chain Damascus will be furnished if desired; our Chain Damascus is very popular". And they (Smith Chain Damascus barrels) were indeed very popular, because they were a danged fine looking set of tubes; but Crown Steel barrels were the standard issue Smith Grade 2 and 3 barrels steels from the time Hunter introduced their "Crown Steel"; with Chain Damascus (and other Damascus barrels on very early Grade 2 guns) optional from that point forward. As FYI, customers could special order other non-cataloged barrel steels on Grade 2 and 3 guns, and I've seen one Grade 3 with Krupp barrels.

As to the above referenced research letter, all that remains of the original company production records are the shipping ledgers; and on Smith guns shipped prior to 1919, there is very little information provided on the overwhelming majority of the serial numbers contained therein. In most cases each page will be divided into two sections that contain six columns each as follows: serial number, gauge, grade, barrel length/s, inspector initial, and ship date. Therefore, assuming that was the information you received; then you received everything that was available. But confirmation of whatever visual information you have regarding the gun in hand is very valuable, even if all you have basically received is confirmation of the original barrel length (as in your barrels were not chopped!). Now, did the information you receive give one or two barrel lengths? If not, then the gun shipped originally with one set of barrels which are most likely the Chain Damascus set; if the record lists two barrel lengths, then you have confirmation that the gun went to its original owner with one set of Crown and one set of Chain Damascus barrels. Now, if the second set of barrels was fitted at Hunter Arms, and not by an after-market gunsmith; there will be a stamp on the barrels to identify the second set. That stamp will be on the fore iron hanger lug, which will be stamped with the number "2"; and you will also find a corresponding "2" stamp on the fore irons of second-barrel sets ordered with a matching forearm. However, there will be no corresponding factory provided "1" stamp on the original barrel set and fore iron.

My understanding is the gun, finished in 1910 came with one set of bbls- the chain pattern damascus which was available at that time.
Later, post 1913, when Hunter Arms offered Crown Steel, the owner sent the gun back for a second set of Crown Steel bbls.
The 2nd set were made/fitted, not by an after market gunsmith, but by L. C. Smith and are so marked and numbered.

I provided serial number, gauge, grade, barrel length/s, and ship date to lcsmith.org.
They confirmed that information only back to me, on their letterhead, as well as the inspector's initial, which is nice to have.

"Later, post 1913, when Hunter Arms offered Crown Steel, the owner sent the gun back for a second set of Crown Steel bbls."

Bob; Hunter Arms "Crown Steel" barrels were officially cataloged in Hunter's 1895 company catalog, but were advertised in period ads as being available on Hunter's Pigeon Grade gun at least as early as mid-1894; so were obviously around 18-19 years prior to 1913, and Crown Steel barrels continued to be used and trademarked on the post-1913 Trap Grade gun. Throughout their history Hunter Arms maintained a repair department that performed barrel replacement and fitted new barrel sets to existing guns all the way back to the pre-Hunter Arms L,C, Smith Syracuse, NY era. So, if a customer ordered another set of barrels on a Smith gun from any manufacturing period, he would be quoted a price based on the barrel tube steel offered within that grade equivalent at that point in time (i.e. for pre-1913 grades Whitworth tube steel was used for the highest grades Monogram thru A3, Nitro Steel on Grades 4, 5, and Pigeon; Crown Steel on Grades 2 and 3; and so on down to Armor Steel on the lowest grade hammerless guns). Prices were always subject to change, but barrel sets made of steel tubes within the same grade were quoted at 1/2 the retail price of a new gun (or of equivalent grade after the grades changes); plus additional cost if the customer also wanted a separate new forearm. In 1905, a Grade 2E w/o a single trigger carried a cataloged retail price of $95; so a new/extra set of Crown Steel barrels would be priced at approximately $47.50, plus the cost of the extra forearm. In your case the owner opted to purchase a barrel set within gun grade; but many shooters opted to save money and purchased their second barrel set made from lower grade barrel tubes to include Armor Steel (which tube steel had earned a great reputation for durability; and I've seen one A3 with a second set of factory fitted Nitro Steel barrels).
And I'm not trying to "one-up" you by relating all this boring crap minutia, only attempting to clear your obvious confusion about some things Smith related; and also to help you understand a bit more about the fine gun you own.
Tom

This post was about a 16 gauge trap grade,sorry!!!!