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Apr 29th, 2024
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 3,774 Likes: 1
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 3,774 Likes: 1 |
There is no hinge pin wearing, when you shooting, hinge pin wearing occures when you open and close your guns. Also its myth about extreme pressures on hinge pin when shooting, it will be enough to draw diagram with all hooks, bites and bolt to figure out all impuls and to understand it and most important its time while this forces will effect, its really Extremely short time.
I could call several old gun experts that wrote about using light oil with wiping it for hinge pins, its not my idea, it was long time practice. And most important is to renew lubes on hinge pins after every hunting or every shooting.
Geno.
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 5,983
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 5,983 |
On a properly fitted pin and hook there is no movement on firing so there is no need for cushioning. The same goes for supposed stress of cocking, operating ejectors/extractors and what stress is involved with opening and closing the action? The hook and pin are a simple hinge with little bearing weight. I maintain that there are many many double guns that are quite functional, tight and on face after many years without ever having the pin and hook lubricated with anything more sophisticated than an occasional wipe down with sewing machine oil. Keep the pin and hook clean and free of corrosion, which only requires a slight amount of corrosion resistant lubricant, shoot ammunition that is appropriate for the gun and the gun will out last you. I have a 125 year old LC Smith that is tight as it was when it left the finishers bench in Syracuse in 1887 and a whole bunch of guns that are about half its age and absolutely non are loose at the hinge. Now over that time period I would suspect all never saw the likes of RIG, certainly not turbine engine oil and until recently anything more high tech than Breakfree applied to the hook and pin during routine cleaning. This has been a fun exercise but in the whole quite useless. You've brought up a lot of points, every one of them wrong! Any 125 yr. old gun that is still tight as new has either been used very little or had extremely good care(as in keeping the hinge area clean and freshly lubed). Most likely both. Unless you owned the gun over its lifetime, you can't possibly know what its maintenance and use history has been. I DO agree that high tech, $19.95 per eyedropper full are probably a waste of money, but keeping these areas clean and freshly lubed is the best way to prolong the life of your guns. JMO, as always. You're entitled to have yours. 
Last edited by Jim Legg; 11/11/10 11:26 AM.
> Jim Legg <
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Joined: Dec 2001
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 3,553 |
Lads... My preferred hinge pins lube is the rendered down fat from the Venezuelan Beaver, Fe-mail, as the male grease has a rather rancid smell,especially in a "Hot Corner" If I run out, I use something slick n greasy.. & clean & re beaver after any shooting . So far so good Franc
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Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 680
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 680 |
[quote=TwiceBarrel]
You've brought up a lot of points, every one of them wrong! I had fully intended to exit this conversation with my last post but Mr. Legg has made some serious claims so Mr. Legg please enlighten me if you can. And explain the functions of the rest of the locking system including the under bites, barrel extension, extension hook and cross bolts etc. Are they just extraneous parts added at the whim of the designer?
Last edited by TwiceBarrel; 11/11/10 12:09 PM.
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Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 12,743
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 12,743 |
On a properly fitted pin and hook there is no movement on "FIRING". Obviously you didn't read the post well. The hinge is "NOT" rotating (Moving) while under the load of firing.
On a well designed gun there is in fact very little pressure upon the Hinge while it is "Opening", unless of course it has one of those DUMB compensating springs in the forend to create friction upon both the hinge & the knuckle joint. Clean light oil has proven itself to work well. I would not prefer to open mine with "Dry" hinges.
Miller/TN
I Didn't Say Everything I Said, Yogi Berra
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Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 3,737 Likes: 55
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 3,737 Likes: 55 |
Franc, I like your reasoning.
If anyone doesn't think that grease or oil is an attractor to dirt, put some grease, oil and then nothing on paint stirer and let it stand outside and see what was "attracted" it it.
As far as comparing an auto's intake and either a babbited bearing or roller bearing, they ride on a thin film of oil. In the 50's, early 60's autos intake cleaner had oil in them to stop the particles from going into the carburetor. High performance ones like K&N still do this, but we are talking hinge pins and not rpms.
I don't believe in using grease, but use a lite coat of oil when cleaning the gun after use. If I did use something else it might be Molycote or a graphite powder, which to me is a better lubricant than oil or grease and will not gather dirt or foreign matter.
David
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
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In order to “resolve” or cancel the forces from firing, the hinge pin must absorb the force. The bite(s) prevent the gun from opening when fired but do not significantly impact the resolution of the force from firing. The standing breech is where the force starts, it is transmitted to the barrel which moves forward slightly when the firing occurs. The brass provides a gasket between the standing breech and the barrel but also transmits the load to the barrel. This load or force is stopped or resolved by the hook and pin. Therefore, there is high pressure exerted on this area for very short times but there is pressure none the less. There is also movement as the metal in the water table flexes slightly on firing. The flexing is what is minimized by a longer water table and the action is prevented from cracking by the radius between the standing breech and the water table. The bolts and corresponding bites lock the barrel to the water table so that they flex as a unit but the forward thrust is resolved by the hinge pin alone.
Thanks
Z
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Joined: Dec 2001
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 12,743 |
""the forward thrust is resolved by the hinge pin alone.""
Certainly not on all guns. A well fitted cross bolt or doll's head shares the load as does the front face of the rear lug on a double under-bolted gun. It is certaijnly stretching things a LOOONG way to claim there is rotational movement of the hinge during firing, with the gun bolted shut.
Some years ago an Uncle of mine was wanting about a 70HP tractor. He found one a dealer had sold, then taken back because the first owner decided he needed a larger one for his use. It was hardly broken in & the dealer offered my uncle a very good deal on it with a full warranty. After putting about 100 hrs on it he couldn't keep oil in it, called the dealer. They came & picked it up. Found a little rubber hose had been left off at the factory which connected the air cleaner to the intake. Rings were eaten up, the dust/grit had imbedded into the cast iron cylinder sleeve & devoured them. Be hard to convince him this could only happen with a "WATER" based carrier.
Miller/TN
I Didn't Say Everything I Said, Yogi Berra
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Joined: Jan 2002
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 3,774 Likes: 1 |
There were one experience long time ago, all bolts and bites were taken off from the sxs gun, then gun been loaded, closed and fired. And what d'you think the power of one hand was enough gun stayed closed during and after firing. Just in case don't do it at home  I have read it somewhere, don't remember.
Geno.
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 5,983 |
Nobody suggested that the hinge pin rotated, during firing. But when opening and closing after firing, the hook sure as heck moves around the pin or trunions. All you have to do is compare the force necessary to open and close a gun after firing with opening and closing the same gun while already cocked. If you don't understand that a lot of work is going on here, you're untrainable. Open any break-open gun with the forend removed or with the hook broken off and see if the hammers get cocked.
Locking lugs and bites are also areas of high stress and potential wear. They need to be cleaned and lubed as well. My preference again is grease.
Please explain the physics involved in the greased paint stirrer "attracting" dirt. Maybe its the way mouse paper works. The sticky coating "attracts" the mouse. OR, just maybe, the mouse walked across the paper and got stuck. The top surfaces of any furniture in the house get a film of dust on them. Attraction? Of course not! Iron is attracted to a magnet. Dirt is not "attracted" by anything other than maybe static electricity. Not by paint paddles or gun oil.
Last edited by Jim Legg; 11/11/10 08:27 PM.
> Jim Legg <
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