doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com What’s the deal with Guild Guns?

Ok, negotiated to buy a “Guild” gun recently advertised on this site.

This is somewhat new territory for me, owned a few American made doubles, but my first for a “guild”.

So why don’t “Guild” guns command the same prices as other well made guns. The quality, material, workmanship etc all seem to be there, so why don’t these guns command the same comparable prices?

Thanks

Mike

No name to attribute them to. They can be a very good value if you buy the gun and not the name. Sort of like a high grade Winchester 1873 lunch pail gun, everything there except the name.

I've got one: 12 ga., 6 1/2 lbs., 28 in.,cyl&full, tasteful hand engraving, decent wood, checkered butt, no mfg. ID, and proof marks not yet identified. Sweet little gun. As nice as any you might see for serious money. LOP is 13 1/2", but I take care of that with a Pachmayr leather slip-on pad. The only reason I could afford it was the absence of a mfg. name. It is my understanding that building a "Guild Gun" is how an apprentice made his bones.

So I have an "English Game Gun" that's a pleasure to own and shoot, but I can't brag about it because it doesn't have a name or model.

Guild Gun is a very generic term. It should simply imply a gun that has no markings other than the proof marks. Many so called "Guild Guns" actually have a maker's mark. Don, Rocketman, has developed a spreadsheet to calc the value of a gun. One of the elements in the formula is Brand Value. A guild gun has no brand so the value drops. A gun proofed in London does not carry any special value unless you see the name H&H, Boss, etc

Having stated the above... I have seen major dealers brand a gun as guild simply because they did know the maker or more likely did know how to id maker's marks, etc.

There is one locale that is an exception to the Guild Gun / Brand Value relationship, that is Ferlach. They felt no need to put their mark on a gun in most cases. The mere fact that it had Ferlach proof marks was enough.

Pete

To me a proper guild gun is marked by a guild, such as Ferlach Guild. Unmarked guns are mostly trade guns. Graduate gunsmiths make one graduate gun only so they are not common; the only confirmed one I saw is unmarked as to maker.
With kind regards,
Jani

My only brush with a guild gun is a pre-war 20 ga. Belgian double. It was wonderfully made, well fitted and finished. I would have no hesitation equating it to a VH Parker. But it doesn't have a name, the necessary handle for brand loyalty if you will, and its value in the marketplace suffers accordingly.

"Guild" is typically used as a synonym for "nameless" in this country, rather than a gun that an apprentice made as the final project for his journeyman ticket--and I think the latter would be quite rare.

What many people don't understand about nameless guns is that they were made the same way a lot of guns with names were made. That is, made "in the trade"--with each specialist contributing within his specialty (barrelmaker, stocker, actioner, engraver, etc)--rather than all under one roof. Using that definition, especially prior to WWII, "guild" guns were quite common from just about every country in Europe with a firearms industry. As a percentage, I think, you probably see more nameless French guns than anything else, with Belgium maybe a close second. But a fair number of British guns, especially boxlocks--regardless of the name on the barrels--were also made the same way, by outworkers in Birmingham. The name you find on the barrels is of the dealer/gunsmith who sold the gun, and who might very well have finished it but not much else. On a French gun, if the barrels carry an address that's anything other than St Etienne or Paris, chances are excellent that it was made "in the trade" in St Etienne and simply sold elsewhere.

Data analysis of a whole bunch of auctions showed me that Brit and Continental 12 bore SXS guns of 1880ish to 1960ish vintage value at USA retail based on Brand Value level (BV), Original Quality grade (OQ), and Current Condition level (CC).

"Guild" (nameless or very little known names) guns have BV5 (basically no brand value) and value at 1/8 of a similar BV1 (Boss, H&H, Purdey, or Woodward). This says that the market attaches a great deal of value to the name on the gun, like it or not. The old saw of, "Buy the gun, not the name," rings true for a gun to use, based on quality and condition. However, you will pay for the name, or not if there is a lack there of.

One thing is for sure, if a part breaks it will cost the same as a Holland or a Purdey because it will have to be individually made and fit with the same care and consideration.

In some cases, one is able to tell which maker made a particular gun, regardless of the name. For example, records exist for Army & Navy guns, including by whom it was made. Those records will show that, for example, a specific A&N was made by Scott--and should not be any different for the Brand Value by the same gun by one by Scott, and so marked.