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ellenbr #184048 03/26/10 10:35 PM
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I'd say it is a E. Schmidt & Habermann Model 581(if with Anson & Deeley locks) but without a Greener safety.
Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

ellenbr #184050 03/26/10 11:21 PM
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Oh, my:

Pay attention, my friends. The master researcher of Germanic guns is on the case.

As I have said before, we stand in awe of this scholarship.

Best,
John


Humble member of the League of Extraodinary Gentlemen (LEG). Joined 14 March, 2006. Member #1.
ellenbr #184052 03/27/10 12:15 AM
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I think there was an article on the Schueler family in the December 1990 Deutsche Waffen-Journal but I don't have a copy.

ellenbr #184077 03/27/10 10:07 AM
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Fred the Saxon: any direction for the publication?



E. Schmidt & Habermann were makers to the trade by I can't say that they didn't sub work to other craftsmen. I don't know who was E. Schmidt & Habermann's frame filer, or contract frame filer, but I almost can say that they mini-clamshell frame side reinforcement is a hallmark of E. Schmidt & Habermann.



With the non-script "Nitro" stamp, I'd guess it passed thru the Suhl proofhouse which really doesn't nail down "RL", or whatever, to a specific location. I guess it was just as easy to submit to one proofhouse as the other but I would garner a guess that most clients wanted the Suhl version.



By the way here is a pic of a Robert Schüler drilling which looks to have either an influence by Funk, Thieme & Schlegelmilch or both:


Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

ellenbr #184084 03/27/10 11:26 AM
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The possibility exists that the initials "R.L.(script?)" are for R. Langenhan of Zella-Mehlis, a decendent of Valentin Friedrich Langenhan of Mehlis, then Zella Saint Blasii, gun and bicycle maker. But I'd put my money on Richard Luck of Gebrüder Luck founded by Franz August Luck in 1879. Post WWI Richard Luck had partnered with Ludwig Wagner which evolved into Luck & Wagner by the early 1930s. They too were into guns and bicycle parts. All hinges on the initials being "R.L.".

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

ellenbr #184092 03/27/10 12:37 PM
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I forgot to mention that Greifelt had similar style side frame reinforcement and the longarm in question is also similar to the Greifelt Model 96(Model 94 w/ horn triggerguard bow). Both E. Schmidt & Habermann and Greifelt offered a clamshell action DR and pretty much used the same term "Stabil" so I don't know which came first or if E. Schmidt & Habermann was sourcing Greifelt for frames. Greifelt did offer offer a hammer version of the "Stabil" DR as a Model 258. I don't know that Greifelt offered a Pigeon SxS with the barrel extensions as sideclips but E. Schmidt & Habermann did as their "Diamond" model.


August Schüler was the younger brother of Friedrich Schüler and I'm guessing their father or grandfather was also named August. August Schüler took the reins of the firm in 1850 and had 2 sons, Friedrich & Oskar, to come up thru the ranks. Prior to WWI, Oskar Schüler left the firm; therefore, leaving the business to Friedrich and his son Richard, who may have become a master about the same time. So Robert Schüler just may be the son of Oskar Schüler and it was Oskar that established the foundation for the business in Köln. Info suggest that the Friedrich/August/Friedrich/Richard Schüler had one whale of a machine shop and that other firms had access to their machinery. That may have been the case but more probable is that the shop of Friedrich/August/Friedrich/Richard Schüler was sourced by other makers, including Robert Schüler, for components. There is info that hints that Robert Schüler had a shop in Suhl but I would say he used that as a marketing tool but only sourced the Schüler shop in Suhl. Post 1915, or later, Richard Schüler thru Fredrik W. Hollender of NY supplied many of the last Charles Daly examples.


Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

ellenbr #184107 03/27/10 03:24 PM
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Originally Posted By: ellenbr
I forgot to mention that Greifelt had similar style side frame reinforcement and the longarm in question is also similar to the Greifelt Model 96(Model 94 w/ horn triggerguard bow). Both E. Schmidt & Habermann and Greifelt offered a clamshell action DR and pretty much used the same term "Stabil" so I don't know which came first or if E. Schmidt & Habermann was sourcing Greifelt for frames. Greifelt did offer offer a hammer version of the "Stabil" DR as a Model 258.


A Bernhard Merkel catalogue is purported to have surfaced and in it is a "Stabil" Model 11 Bernhard Merkel offering with Poldi Anticorro tubes, so I attach even more probability to Bernhard Merkel as the source of the filed clamshell frames, which may have been forged at Sauer. Now there is a .450 Sauer clamshell DR or 2 out there. Hopefully someone will find a frame stamp hidden by the wood or components.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

ellenbr #184121 03/27/10 05:32 PM
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Raimey,
I think Dr. Prusok, the ASSRA archivist, has it.

ellenbr #184755 04/02/10 06:51 PM
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I bought an old BBF combo ("vertical cape gun") in Germany back in December. Very little info, no picture, but the price was modest at about $300 so I took the risk. The gun came here today. It looks almost exactly like RickD's. Unmarked outside but marked WK in script on the barrels (Wilhelm Kelber?). Proof date 5/26 (?- a bit fuzzy) for May 1926. Serial number 15012. Rifle barrel marked 7.8/57 and 15g so 8x57 IR as marked on the sale papers should be correct; shotgun barrel is the usual 16g 65mm.
The frame is almost same as RickD's except two details: on mine the upper part of the clamshell is more curved, and there is an extra small screw securing the front screw. There is a single Greener crossbolt, on the right side. Following Raimey's research this should be a Schmidt & Habermann or a Greifelt design if I understand correctly. As I remember I once saw the same type of action used on a Borovnik Ferlach BBF dated to the 1930s.
With kind regards,
Jani

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RickD's example.

An image similar to Jani's example


An image of an Anson-Kerner BBF combo similar to Jani's acquisition. Script "WK" would be Wilhelm Kelber so I wonder if he fitted the action. As I've stated before Axel Eichendorff holds that Wilhelm Kelber's script initials notes his making of the tubes and the "K" encircled by a heart shaped "W" notes the fitting of the action. I don't subscribe to that as of now. Somewhere on the tubes between the flats and the forend lug will be a set of tube maker's marks, probably a "K" encircled by a jagged image. I'm curious what the tube steel might be? With all the combos I'm curious if E. Schmidt & Habermann sourced Greifeldt for the frames as per their catalogues they offered quite a few O/Us usually with Boehler tubes? E. Schmiddt & Habermann is noted as a maker to the trade and I assume Greifeldt could have been but I haven't seen any info suggesting so. As usually more research is needed and I'm also curious what part the owners played and I think Paul was a master gunsmith. Was the Nitro mark in script? By the way these are of the Kerner - Anson & Deeley design being a rung or 2 about the triggerplate actions.

I mentioned earlier that I though that all Robert Schüler examples that I've seen were upper eschelon but upon reviewing my notes I did see a utility grade drilling at the 2009 Vintager's event as well as a double or 2 which were a bit about the utility status. Of course as usual I should have made better notes but I think the drilling had the initials "RS" on the underside which I would attribute to Richard Schüler and this assumption would strengthen the argument that Robert Schüler of Köln sourced Richard Schüler for his examples. But the same day I say the Robert Schüler drilling I also saw the Robert Schüler 600 Nitro clamshell and I guess it overshadowed the drilling.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

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