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Originally Posted By: BrentD
Larry, as I am sure you know, ingesting metallic lead from time to time is not particularly bad for most mammals. Lead oxides are another thing of course.

Lead in humans in ND was a factual observation. That it comes from game seems quite unlikely. Pretty much end of story for us. Not that it was part of the story in the first place. It is simply a source for information about the distribution of lead in game animals. And that is a bit more to the point, no?

Now, since I know you, I also know that you are bright enough to have all of this figured out. So, other than figuratively kicking an ant nest to see what pours out, what's your point?



The point, Brent--unless I'm missing yours, and you seem to be wandering all over the place--is that those who are trying to ban lead shot, lead bullets etc, will use ANY excuse (based on "good science" or not) to promote their agenda. Lead poisoning is a fact in humans; it's a fact that it will kill birds. The question is, what danger is posed by the lead we shoot, transferred to us by the game we eat, or to birds by the lead they ingest from feasting on unrecovered game shot with lead. Those are the questions to which we need to respond, based on the facts in evidence, when dealing with the specious reasoning presented by the nontoxic shot proponents.

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Larry, a lot of people have a lot of different motivations for getting into the lead shot/bullet issue. If you continue to lump them all into one group, you will miss the boat. Lead in meat we eat is quite different in effect than the same lead in meat that raptors might eat. Which, of course, you know quite well, but seem to wish to avoid acknowledging.

Your vocabulary tells me you have already made up your mind sans data of course.


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Originally Posted By: BrentD
Larry, a lot of people have a lot of different motivations for getting into the lead shot/bullet issue. If you continue to lump them all into one group, you will miss the boat. Lead in meat we eat is quite different in effect than the same lead in meat that raptors might eat. Which, of course, you know quite well, but seem to wish to avoid acknowledging.

Your vocabulary tells me you have already made up your mind sans data of course.



Still at it, hey Brent? Your credibility in this thread has been diminished to such an extent that any further posting on your part is down right laughable.

All anyone has to do is look back about a week ago to the blatant lies you posted on this thread and your childish behavior after you were caught red handed.

Your continued insistence on posting about this topic is only hurting your anti-lead/anti-hunting cause, which in afterthought, I am all for.


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There's 25 pages to this thread, so I don't know - but has anyone addressed the issue of turkey vultures, their choice of what is essentially a 100% carrion diet, and the effect it has had on them and their numbers? It seems like that would be a good sentinel species.

Sorry if this was covered already.

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Here's why the Turkey Vulture isn't a good indicator species for lead toxicity in other raptors:

http://www.jwildlifedis.org/cgi/reprint/39/1/96.pdf

In summary: "considerable tolerance by turkey vultures to the deleterious effects of lead ingestion.
Based on these observations, turkey vultures appear to be poor models for assessing the risk of
lead poisoning to California condors or predicting their physiologic response."

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That's pretty interesting Rook.


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Also, its important to note that the physiology of a new world vulture is very different than other raptors. (Raptor simply means "to bind with claws" not an implication of common family or ancestry)

The Black Vulture and Turkey Vulture are most closely related to Wood Storks than any other living bird. Thus, without knowing much about wood storks I can't comment much on the aforementioned new world vultures but to say that their anatomy and physiology are quite different than other birds.

And just to mention two funny things about them to lighten the tense mood on this thread:

1. Vultures have incredibly strong uric acid that they excrete on their feet to sanitize themselves after eating putrid, rotting flesh. When vultures find a nice comfy asphalt roof to loiter on in droves they just can't be convinced to move on to the neighbor's house. Their excrement will eat through a 30 year roof shingle in about 6 weeks!

2. They can projectile vomit to defend themselves. Imagine the joy of having them shoot their lunch at you in all it's 99 degree half-digested, half-rotten goodness! Mmmm. Great bird to work with.

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They also have a keen (for a bird) sense of smell. TVs that is. Not BVs. Condors????


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Originally Posted By: BrentD
Larry, a lot of people have a lot of different motivations for getting into the lead shot/bullet issue. If you continue to lump them all into one group, you will miss the boat. Lead in meat we eat is quite different in effect than the same lead in meat that raptors might eat. Which, of course, you know quite well, but seem to wish to avoid acknowledging.

Your vocabulary tells me you have already made up your mind sans data of course.



Brent, I was in the threat analysis business, as an intelligence officer, for a very long time. I don't believe in ignoring ANY threat. We focused on the Soviet Union as THE bogeyman for a long time, and they certainly presented the most serious threat in terms of the harm they could do. But it was not the Soviet Union that attacked us on 9/11. We could say that "data" is irrelevant when it is either nonexistent (as the MNDNR's Nontoxic Shot Advisory Committee admits, when it comes to threats to wildlife) or proves the opposite of what the lead opponents are trying to prove (as in the ND study, showing that eating meat shot with lead poses at worst a minimal threat to humans), but that's the "data" the lead opponents will continue to use. In spite of the best "good science", they'll continue to toss the kitchen sink in our direction. If we ignore their "data", no matter how specious it may be, we're essentially yielding the floor to them. So far, what's kept us from having more unnecessary nontoxic requirements has been hunters and shooters, making noise to local politicians--as you should know very well, from what happened in Iowa just this year. Twice, in fact. If anything, we need to increase the volume.

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Originally Posted By: Rookhawk
Here's why the Turkey Vulture isn't a good indicator species for lead toxicity in other raptors:

http://www.jwildlifedis.org/cgi/reprint/39/1/96.pdf

In summary: "considerable tolerance by turkey vultures to the deleterious effects of lead ingestion.
Based on these observations, turkey vultures appear to be poor models for assessing the risk of
lead poisoning to California condors or predicting their physiologic response."


I've got to be honest here - what I see is a study that concluded that turkey vultures are a lot LESS susceptible to lead ingestion than was expected. What I don't see is a corresponding study to show that other raptors are any more susceptible than the vultures. Sure, there is the assertion, but no proof. And I'm having a hard time accepting the dramatic differences in physiology that are being proposed. No proof there either, and while it isn't my specialty, none that I was ever taught. It would be unusual to find that much physiological difference in species that similar, to say the least. I know that we would treat them medically the same, because the physiology is the same where drugs, etc. are concerned.

To summarize, we've got a species that basically makes its living off of eating dead animals - the very ones we are concerned about that got that way due to a poor shot by the hunter and are horribly contaminated by hundreds of bullet fragments. Yet for some inexplicable reason, this species of raptor that is most-exposed is relatively insulated from the toxic effects of lead contamination in the carcass, while the other species in the group (who are actually less opportunistic and will actually hunt for prey rather than depend on finding carrion) are somehow much more susceptible, despite the fact that they don't partake of carrion nearly as often as the vultures.

No one would accept the premise that lead ingestion had decimated the vulture population, because all one has to do is lift an eye to the sky in any non-urban area and more than likely one or more can be found soaring on thermals. Come to think of it, the other indiginous raptor species in this region are thriving as well...

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