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One thing I'd like to mention about this conversation:

While I may receive varying degrees of disagreement with people that goes from "polite contention" to absolute hate mongering that I'm somehow a pawn of gun-grabbers, I'd like to point to the path where even if I"m right, none of this makes any trouble for us as sportsman.

1. If we do not leave carcasses or gut piles in the field, there is no need for a lead ban in rifle cartridges. (plus it's rude, sloppy and gross. I hate when my dog finds YOUR garbage and rolls in it)

2. If those that must shoot varmints for legitimate reasons (protect their land and crops), and should they insist on leaving the caracasses to rot, they could simply buy non-toxic rifle rounds in most calibers from 17 HMR to .30-06.

If sportsmen were a little tidier on cleaning up after themselves and using due care, they could go a long way to protecting both our 2nd amendment rights AND protect our natural ecosystem for which they gather so much enjoyment.

Being a conservationist and sportsman is about being a gentleman. (or Lady) Shotgunners seem to be the most "gentry-esque" of sportsman on the average and the varmint hunter to my way of thinking tends to be the most un-sporting on average. If we can either change the habits of the fringe members of the hunting sports, or if necessary segregate ourselves from them, we may very well continue to enjoy the privilige of shooting lead.

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Rookhawk

I think the notion that we remove the entire animal from the field prior to dressing it is unrealistic and unreasonable. Field dressing a big game animal does not make one ungentlemanly. Just the opposite. It shows a respect for the game animal you just killed. Once an animal is down, you have a responsiblity to cool the carcass as quickly as possible in order to thwart any spoilage. That is best done by removing the entrails and opening up the body cavity.

Of the raptors in question, what percentage of their diet is from scavenged carcasses?

Marcus

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Originally Posted By: BrentD
Larry, if the discussion is about humans, than I can agree with you about step 2. But I don't believe that is what we were discussing was it?

It is really only step 3. And if you wish, yes, Condors matter here, and the rest of the raptors - so far as we know, CURRENTLY do not. But you have to admit, you know damn little about many of them.

If you go back and look at the data from the MNDNR you will see that buffalo hunter lead fragments were really not such a big deal. You will also do well go to back and look at what is know about the predators of the day - particularly raptors, not mammals. A little anatomy is useful there.


Brent, are you suggesting that we should NOT worry about lead in humans? Darn . . . wonder why they bothered to run that test up in ND. Seems to me, since we know that the ingestion of lead is toxic to humans, we should indeed worry about them. The animal rights types might say that a dog is a pig is a rat is a boy, but I think I'll put the boy on the top of the "worry" scale.

We do know, from raptor rehabilitators, that eagles are getting sick from ingesting lead. Would appear to be the kind of lead we were discussing most recently (fragments from bullets in unrecovered large game animals, or perhaps in what's left behind when the animal is field dressed. It's not at all unusual to see eagles on road-killed deer up here in WI. Don't know why they'd avoid animals that have been shot and not recovered.)

The MNDNR says a lot of things, including the following from their own Nontoxic Shot Advisory Committee: "The issues are extremely complex and conclusive data on wildlife population impacts is lacking. Furthermore, it is unlikely that conclusive data can ever be obtained due to the cost of this type of research." It was much easier to tell with waterfowl, because they've been closely monitored for a very long time, and are comparatively easy to observe. Also easy to tell with bald eagles (again, fairly closely monitored and observed), with numbers that were very low at the time lead was banned for waterfowl. But it's a bit hard to say how much of a role the lead ban played in the bald eagle recovery, because DDT was also banned not long prior to that.

[/quote]

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You guys should seek help...

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Larry, as I am sure you know, ingesting metallic lead from time to time is not particularly bad for most mammals. Lead oxides are another thing of course.

Lead in humans in ND was a factual observation. That it comes from game seems quite unlikely. Pretty much end of story for us. Not that it was part of the story in the first place. It is simply a source for information about the distribution of lead in game animals. And that is a bit more to the point, no?

Now, since I know you, I also know that you are bright enough to have all of this figured out. So, other than figuratively kicking an ant nest to see what pours out, what's your point?


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Originally Posted By: BrentD
Larry, as I am sure you know, ingesting metallic lead from time to time is not particularly bad for most mammals. Lead oxides are another thing of course.

Lead in humans in ND was a factual observation. That it comes from game seems quite unlikely. Pretty much end of story for us. Not that it was part of the story in the first place. It is simply a source for information about the distribution of lead in game animals. And that is a bit more to the point, no?

Now, since I know you, I also know that you are bright enough to have all of this figured out. So, other than figuratively kicking an ant nest to see what pours out, what's your point?


If that means us North Dakotans have "more lead in our pencils", I'm all for it. Super-Size mine. laugh laugh


Practice safe eating. Always use a condiment.
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Originally Posted By: BrentD
How rare is rare?


If you are referring to my post, I'll make you an offer: I've got about 20,000 radiographs on file. Of those, there are many hundreds of gunshot wounds. These are all real-world cases, not experimentally produced, or "simulated." In virtually every case, the shooter was intending to kill. You are welcome to peruse each and every one (I already have over the last 20 years). Or, I can save you some trouble and tell you what you will not find - which is any case that looks like the one presented in this thread. You may find one or two that start to approach it, but not equal it.

That's what I mean by "rare."

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vh20.

Good for you. how many of those 20k pictures are of highpower HUNTING rifle inflicted wounds?

Are you taking issue with the MNDNR radiographs too?

And again, how rare is rare? Rare enough?


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A large number of them were from high-powered rifles - we live in a rural area, and residents are well-equipped to kill trespassing dogs (even though it is illegal in most cases).

I am not taking issue with ANY radiographs other than the one presented here, and I have not seen MNDNR's. I AM stating that the radiograph presented on this forum is far more dramatic than what I have seen in 20 years of radiographing gunshot wounds as part of my profession. I am NOT stating it is disingenuous. I AM stating that the technique was deliberately manipulated to dramaticize the fragmentation pattern. I am not making any judgement, and I am not making some other point. I AM pointing out how evidence presented can be other than what it appears to be on the surface, and as a result conclusions that seem obvious may not be correct.

Make of it what you will. Furthermore? I cannot comment.

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Originally Posted By: Marc Ret
Rookhawk

Of the raptors in question, what percentage of their diet is from scavenged carcasses?

Marcus


That's a difficult question to answer without huge study sizes over long periods of time. What I can tell you is in winter months in SW Wyoming and NE Utah, over 2-4 week observation periods, over 6 years out of the past ten, I observed as follows:

Eagles and Buteos eating from roadkill and gut piles hundreds upon hundreds of times. In that same observation period I saw predation on live quarry only a few dozen times. During harsh conditions wildlife will return for weeks to the same frozen carcass until there is nothing left but bones.

Contrast this with raptors east of the Mississippi where scavenging is much less common for these same species.

Sorry I have no formal study to point you to.

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