doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com A Shotgun by F. Celerier [Somewhat Darne-like]

YES!

This is pure Belgian.

Francois Celerier of Wandre, a suburb of Liege was active from 1872 to 1877. He held 5 patents for single and double guns. MAL had 2 of his guns on display at one point.

There is some indication that he took over the business of Lambert Ghaye, also of Liege, who was active 1855 to 1872.
http://www.littlegun.be/arme%20belge/artisans%20identifies%20g/a%20ghaye%20gb.htm

Apparently neither of them ever registered a trade mark.

Pete

So the Belgians could do wierd too?

Although there was no strict requirement for proof in France for quite some time, I think it's pretty unusual to find a French gun without them--unlike, say, German guns prior to the proof laws of the 1890's.

Pete and Larry, I think you are right. I assumed the gun was French because of the "look". Also, found this in a book listing French gunmakers, but also notice this book also includes Belgian makers from time to time. Here's what they say. Maybe Larry can translate. Listing for F Celerier---

Armurier vers 1867 . Vu sur un fusil double a percussion centrale, ouverture par avance du canon rappelant le systeme Ghaye, longue cle levier sur la culasse fixe.

Pete, what is MAL ? Later----------Is it the Museum of Arms in Liege ?

"Gunsmith since 1867. Vision of a double gun with central percussion, opening by pushing barrels forward, reminding of Ghaye system, long lever over the immobile action".

"Mal" means sick, I believe.
Edit: Never mind!

Silver, thanks. The book must have been refering to another action as the barrels are stationary and the action moves on this one.

Daryl,

Yes, I saw that in the French Who's Who as well. They are dating a gun to 1867, his name was seen on a percussion rifle by Ghaye. That is where I got the reference to Ghaye.

I do not know for sure about M.A.L. as the source. The Belgian Who's Who, never explains. However, they list 2 reference numbers, so I assumed it was a museum. I searched the online catalog at http://www.museedarmes.be/home.htm (Liege Museum of Fire Arms)but drew a blank. Does not mean it is not in their collection.... The other major museum in Liege www.lesmuseesenwallonie.be/ (Museum of Wallon Life) does not have a working website at the moment.

Pete

Couple minor corrections to the French translation: "vers 1867" would be around or about 1867 rather than since. I've always struggled with translating "cle", which literally means key in French but refers to the opening mechanism on a Darne-type shotgun. Don't know whether Ted has settled on anything better than "key" where Darnes are concerned.

I came to my conclusion due to the Brevete under his name.
This means patent. The same is used on other actions. As an example on Lindner guns with the A&D with Brevete under on the face of the action.
Best,
John