doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Greener's Weldless Twist

I collect orphaned Damascus barrels for various reasons and recently I found a nice set of Greener tubes with an unusual twist pattern. On closer inspection I found them to be engraved as 'Patent Weldless Twist' and the gun was numbered 20205 which places it in about 1879.
Looking in 'The Gun and its Development' by WW Greener in chapter 10 he describes the process and illustrates it with an engraving.
It is interesting as instead of being formed as a coil around a mandrel, it is formed out of a solid bar and then bored out. This results in no 'greys' and, he claims, a denser core which lends itself to rifling.
Sorry about the poor picture but here it is:

I thought this might be of interest to the Damascus enthusiasts out there!

Thank you Toby, I can't post the link to the image of "Greener's Solid Weldless-Twist Barrel" with "figure similar to that of Wire Twist" SO scroll down to the bottom here and you can click on the link
http://docs.google.com/Doc?id=dfg2hmx7_234chsrtv6s

Damn, this is a good website. Without it, we'd all be in the "knowlege" dark ages. Thanks, Toby

In 50 years of collecting I have only seen/owned one Greener gun with Weldless twist barrels. This was gun #59039, grade D13, Made in 1911. This gun is one of Greener,s inexpensive grade guns retailing for 13 Gns;[13 pounds 13 shillings].I was surprised to find Weldless twist barrels on A D13 because I would have thought that they would have been more expensive to make than conventional damascus. The gun was a 12G non-ejector with 30 inch Barrels, Birmingham nitro proof for 1 1/4 ozs, loads.

See if this works "James and Reynolds London" British proofs, twist looke like the pic of Greener Weldless. Locks are bizarre to say the least
Guess not I'll try again in a coupole of days
Mike

I have no idea how many may have been made but US patent #9,999 was issued to Thomas Warner, Chicopee, MA Sept 6, 1853 for a process of making "Twist" bbls very similar to this. According to his claims he took a solid bar, heated it, then twisted it like twisting a rope, to the desired abount of twist. It was then "Upset" end to end for compaction, after which it was bored to caliber, & finished to proper shape on the outside. This would definitely fit the description of a "Weldless Twist".

Thank you Toby.

Tim

In reviewing your excellent picture of the Weldless twist barrels,it appears as though the barrel blanks were twisted from both ends[ie: gives the impression of a left and right hand twist that meet in the approximate centre of the barrel]!The example that I once owned had a continuous twist in one direction through out the length of the barrel.The resultant pattern,was as seen, on page 243 of Greener,s book, "The Gun." I was unable to find a reference to, Weldless twist barrels in Graham Greeners book,"The Greener Story." I wonder if a Greener patent exists, or was Greener producing/using barrels under licence based on the U.S.A.patent mentioned in an earlier post?

A page from Greener:


This is an image from Figiel, "On Damascus Steel"


Figiel, himself an avid collector, has documented some of the early methods of forming damascus that were used in India. They often involved twisting bars, cutting them and rejoining, etc. They created patterns that we rarely see. It was the Ottoman focus on economy that resulting in wrapping around a mandrel. This was adopted by Europeans.

The issue with twisting a bar is that more metal is lost during the boring.

Pete

c. 1790 French fowler with 'Twisted' barrels





La Chasse Au Fusil Gervis Francois Magne’ de Marolles 1789
An Essay On Shooting (An English adaptation of Marolles' original)
http://books.google.com/books?id=-Q0AAAA...ary_s&cad=0

The (Twisted) barrel when forged (is) made to undergo the operation of twisting, which is a process employed by the French workmen on those barrels that are intended to be of a superior quality and price to others; but which as will be seen in the sequel, is very different from that followed by the English workmen in the formation of their twisted barrels. This operation consists in heating the barrel in portions of a few inches at a time, to a high degree of red heat, when one end of it is screwed into a vice, and into the other is introduced a square piece of iron with a handle like an augre and by means of these, the fibres of the heated portion are twisted in a spiral direction that is found to resist the effort of the powder much better than a longitudinal one. To render this operation as complete as possible, it is necessary to observe, that when one the several portions of the barrel have been twisted, the heats that are afterwards given in order to consolidate the fibers of the metal in their spiral direction, by means of the hammer, ought not to be very great. Otherwise the grain of the metal will regain its former state, and the barrel be no better than it was before it underwent to twisting.
From the process it is evident, that to twist a barrel in this manner, throughout its whole length, it must be forged nearly a foot and half longer than it is intended to be when finished, that a portion at each end may be kept cold, so as to give a sufficient purchase to the vise and twisting instrument during the operation: these portions are afterwards to be cut off before the barrel is bored.
The English workmen with whom we have conversed…are all of opinion…that this process of twisting…is really injurious to the barrel, by straining the fibres of metal.