doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Thoughts on possibly buying a Birmingham SxS...

I put about 2K rounds through my Charles Lancaster Model A Live Pigeon at wobble trap and ZZ each year. 1896 with original 2 3/4 chambers, proofed for 1 1/4 oz, and Whitworth barrels. I reload to about 8000psi, so no problems with it.

However, My Claybrough & Johnstone sidelock is a 7 pound game gun, and I put about 1K rounds through it on clays in August and doves in September - November. I reload to about 7000psi with 1 oz shot. No sign of stock cracks.

As I have made available before on this forumbefore, I have on Excel quite a mumber of low pressure loads from 4000 - 9000 psi using various hulls, primers, shot weights, and powder that were originally published by Sherman Bell. Just send me an email to jhaynes1@flash.net and ask for it. Jim Haynes

Jerry, I went back and read your original post and saw you were asking about a gun that was made 70 years ago. That would be in 1940 and I would not buy a Brit gun from that time period,at all.
As you have read the golden era was between the wars and for my money the best for value years were at the turn of the century{19th to 20th}. Find a nice one from before 1898 and you don't have to deal with the Feds to take delivery.
Advice to have a competent smith go over the gun is to be taken to heart and should be a condition of the sale. Good luck

Jerry, I went back and read your original post and saw you were asking about a gun that was made 70 years ago. That would be in 1940 and I would not buy a Brit gun from that time period,at all.
As you have read the golden era was between the wars and for my money the best for value years were at the turn of the century{19th to 20th}. Find a nice one from before 1898 and you don't have to deal with the Feds to take delivery.
Advice to have a competent smith go over the gun is to be taken to heart and should be a condition of the sale. Good luck

Although many of the "period" Brit game guns will be marked 1 1/8 oz, which was the max load for which they were designed, you can be far kinder than that to them by shooting very light reloads. Low pressure, it doesn't make any difference if you're using standard American hulls, even if the chambers are 2 1/2". And while there are 2 1/2" factory shells available, most of them are field loads of an ounce or more (although RST and maybe another company or two do make some lighter short shells for targets and game). I've owned a number of Brit doubles, both 12 and 16, and have shot multiple hundreds of light reloads through them in a year, not to mention "full strength" loads of 1 1/16 or 1 1/8 oz during pheasant season. They'll have pretty much the same issues as any older gun, but you do need to remember . . . it's not the years, it's the miles (or the shells, and the amount of care/abuse the gun has seen).

Right now, the market for used Brit (and European) boxlocks seems to be somewhat depressed. Not a bad time to buy. And the recommendation of the Scott 700 series is an excellent one. They're newer guns with modern chamber lengths, etc, but handling characteristics like the prewar guns. Should be easy to find a 12, in nice shape, in your price range.

And the Webley & Scott 700's in current production are indeed coming out of Turkey. A friend just handed me a catalog he picked up at the SHOT Show.

Justin, and others...

When I mentioned "70 years-old" that was only an approximate number, to clearly indicate I was referring to an older shotgun. I'm looking at several, and the ages vary in that 70 year to 90 year range.

Your point is well taken about the WWII period.

JERRY

with the caveat that condition is everything, the Birmingham guns were made to be shot and made to last. There's not much that can go wrong the action that can't be fixed easily by a competent gun smith. Some good advice by previous posters.

I shoot an 80+ year-old Westley Richards box lock. I don't shoot near the volume as you (mid-hundreds would be realistic), but my gun still functions flawlessly with minimal maintenance. I also shoot RSTs. I've watched WR boxlocks on the market and notice their price fluctuates quite a bit from bargains to rip offs. \

Thanks for all the comments. A few more questions...

1. What is the significance of " 1-1/8 " on the barrel flats? Obvious that was the nitro proof shot weight. Does it tell us any more?

2. What is the significance of " 1/31 " on the barrel flats?

3. I didn't see any length designation on the barrel flats. Should it be there?

4. Is a well-restored moderately engraved Birmingham BLNE 12 gauge worth $3k? If I tired of it, would it be difficult to sell for that amount?

Jerry Goldstein

1. What is the significance of " 1-1/8 " on the barrel flats? Obvious that was the nitro proof shot weight. Does it tell us any more?

That was the standard proof for a 2-1/2" chambered gun. The standard British 2-1/2" shell contained 1-1/16oz of shot and propelled it at about 1200 fps

2. What is the significance of " 1/31 " on the barrel flats?

That was the Diameter of the barrels at the time of proof. There is a table you can look up and see what the diameter at the time of proof was. In England it is illegal to sell a gun that has been honed a certain amount past the original proof diameter without reproofing the gun. It is not in the USA.

3. I didn't see any length designation on the barrel flats. Should it be there?

If you mean chamber length I believe the 12 over C in a diamond indicates 2-1/2" chambers. Over the 100 and some odd years they ahe been proofing guns the rules have changed from time to time. If you could post pictures of the barrel flats it would be very helpful

4. Is a well-restored moderately engraved Birmingham BLNE 12 gauge worth $3k? If I tired of it, would it be difficult to sell for that amount?

It is hard to say without pictures but that is a lot of money for a Birmey Boxlock.

Best,

Mike

Mike, I think he meant 13/1, which would indicate a bore diameter 9" ahead of the breech end of .725 to .728.




12 over a C in a diamond means 12 gauge chambers, nothing more. If a gun was proofed at 1 1/8 oz it originally had 2 1/2" chambers; if the proof load was 1 1/4 oz it was 2 3/4".

A few points I think worth mentioning. The "Standard" shot load for a 2½" chambered British gun was 1 1/8oz prior to WWI. To conserve lead it became mandatory for the makers to only load 1 1/16oz during this period. British ballistics of the era primarily listed the "Observed Velocity" which was the average over the first 20yds of flight. Conversion tables for these loads show many were much closer to 1300fps MV than 1200fps.
The 12/C in a diamond indicates any chamber "Shorter" than 3", thus an original 2 3/4" chamber of that era is also marked with 12/C in a diamond. After the standard shot charge wt began to be marked then that will help define the original chamber length ie 1 1/8 for 2½" chamber; 1¼ for 2 3/4" etc. As I recall I believe that actual chamber length & "Tons" pressure came in at about the same time. Prior to the shot wt marking there was really nothing in the proof marks to determine chamber length.
As a side note the standard USA ballistics quoting a 3DE-1 1/8oz load as 1200 fps MV was almost univesally applied as velocity over the first 15 ft for many many years. After the charge leaves the muzzle it seperates quickly so that individual drag replaces the drag on the charge as a unit. Velocity falls extremely rapidly at speeds in excess of the speed of sound. That 1200 fps is quite a bit "OFF" of true MV or the velocity at exact exit of the muzzle.
PS; that 1/31 should read 13/1 which denotes a dia which will accept a .719" dia gage but not a .729" one to a depth of 9" down the bore from the breech.

Joe; you posted some of this while I was writing. I should have added longer chambers were marked 12/LC (long chamber). The wording on this is just a little ambigous however & is not entirely clear if this mark began with 3" or for anything longer than 3".