doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Why do people 'butcher' barrels....?

Different strokes...

I am guilty of changing a couple of sterlingworths. I love the looks of the gun and wanted to shoot one. Alas I gave up on them and had what I wanted built in Northern Spain......three times! I am now perfectly happy. I still have a few foxes just for looking at I guess. The one I had restocked kicked a lot

All of which is great . . . except even when I asked the man who wrote a very good book on Ithacas, and who has access to the factory records, he couldn't tell me whether my 1920 Flues 12ga came from the factory with 2 3/4" chambers (which it now has) or 2 5/8" chambers. No problem at all spotting forcing cones that have been lengthened to the extent they typically are on modern shotguns. However, if you read the great, detailed book on Foxes, you'll learn that Savage supposedly lengthened all chambers to 2 3/4" (which would have required some cone alteration as well, although not as long as they're done today) whenever a short-chambered gun was returned to the factory for any work. The cones on the Flues I referred to above certainly have not been lengthened to modern preferences, but that doesn't mean the chambers might not have been lengthened and the cones done a few decades back, when shorter cones were still the style.

Chambers and cones are on one end of the barrels, chokes on the other. I've had a lot of chokes altered on older guns; far fewer chambers and cones. Why would the reverse not be equally true, assuming the guy having the tampering done liked the chokes as they were, but wanted altered chambers and/or cones? If you can find standard bore dimensions for the old classics and have a bore and choke gauge, it's not too hard to detect honing.

If the old guns shot tight with older, pre-WWII shotshells, chances are they'll shoot tighter with modern shells. That's great, if that's what you want. But you may be looking for different results, if your goal is to maybe shoot a turkey and some trap with your 16ga Parker as opposed to using it for skeet, as well as grouse and woodcock. Different chokes for different folks, to paraphrase a bit.

Maybe in Doug's original post, he should have used the word "alter" instead. I think "butcher" raised a lot of neck hairs.
I happen to agree with him. I have been at this wonderful site for a few years, and having seen most posts from everyone here, have come to realize that most if not all have more than one side by side. Why, because we like them, some collect various makes, I just happen to like the "elsies".
My opinion, would be like a few have stated, when you buy the gun, you bought it for a few reasons, most bought it for shooting, so you knew the condition and hopefully had or had some one measure the bores and chambers for you. Also most of these old guns, most did not have choke identification on the barrels, so we take it as it is stated on the bore gage. "Elsies did come from the factory full/full unless other wise ordered, and a letter will not tell what the chokes were, so if we get one we like, we settle for the chokes it has. The only deal breaker might be honed bores.

I also think that Doug's statement and mine also, is that people who first buy a gun without trying it first, want to have the chokes opened or the stock cut and a recoil pad put on.

In the type of hunting-shooting I do, I really have no need for full/full and 32" barrels, but I have some and will not change them. On some that I have bought, with recoil pads on them, if the stock wasn't cut, I replace it with a butt plate. On the ones that were cut and a recoil pad put on, a few were still to short and I have added wood extensions to them. To me still nicer than a non period recoil pad, and nicer than a 1 1/2" re-pro. Silvers pad.

My favorite barrel length used to be 26" imp.cyl./mod., in a few o/u I still have in 20 ga. and 28 ga. These were used for skeet and upland hunting for birds as big as pheasants. Now my favorite in these old guns is either 28" mod/full, 28" imp.cyl/full or 30" imp.cyl/full. None were done at the factory, I believe, but they were not done by me.

This is what suites me, and I realize that it doesn't suite everyone and like I stated, we all have more than one, so use one that suites you for your conditions, or find one that does.
Is there such a thing as having too many?

Didn't put this in the original post because I was not done putting the finish on it, but this is the extension I added to the stock that someone did "butcher". Some won't like it, but to me it is better than any recoil pad, Total length of stock before with 1" Pachmayr recoil pad was 13" now it is 14 1/8" to end of butt plate.
Some might say restock it, but how much would you pay for a piece of wood like that?

Yes, at my age, there is such a thing as having too many. I went through all the stages and now think possessions are a burden. Extravagance sickens over time, declasse, and I wouldn't talk about how many guns I have outside the camp. I'll taper off to three or four doubles.

VINTAGE DOUBLES:

My six doubles are factory original full choked, all factory short cones and the 16's and one 12 have factory short chambers......I load 7/8 oz. low pressure, 2.5" 12 & 16 Cheddite Hulls for all of them because I have found for over 50 years or so that:

A. They do not kick and create wood cracks
B. They do not tear up birds close in or far out
C. They shoot 50-60 yards just fine
D. They target-kill-break anything your 'eyesight' allows you to hit
E. They unfold in the original sharp cone guns to the same length as the rolled crimp paper shells of the past

F. MOST OF THIS GOES OUT THE WINDOW IF YOU CUT UP THE CHOKES AND CONES..... WHILE TRYING TO MAKE A MODERN AMMO GUN OUT OF IT

If one buys his ammo over the counter at Walmart or wherever or loads to the modern equivelant, then your comment about tighter patterns with modern ammo is correct. ***Point being, that so called 'modern' ammo is too heavy for the old guns IMO.....

That is why so many old doubles are running around with broken-cracked stocks.......but folks WILL continue stuffing strong loads in these old guns, just because they can, rather than learning how to shoot.......and thinking more shot equals higher scores or more birds.......really......hmmmmmm---

If you want a modern ammo gun, buy a new 'family truckster'....made for the present 'more is better mentality'.....


Different Strokes......For Different Folks.......Joe Wood is right.....

Tolerance and respect. Disqualifying someone's reasoned point of view because it is
not yours is really non conducive to harmonious relations.

To each his own, especially when there are powerful well founded reasons
behind whatever one wants to do with one's doubles.

Even if the reason is: "because I like it".

JC

A gun is only worth what it is worth to the person using it.

If I shoot sheet I am going to sell it or open the chokes.

A gun you cannot use is just a jack handle with wood. It should be traded for a worn out hunting coat. You can throw the coat away and not feel bad.

Boy! It'd sure be boring if we all thought the same, wanted the same, ate the same, and shot the same. I totally understand where PA24 is coming from--and respect it. And, RPr, who just posted, also gets my nod. It has been a good subject to chew on and most participants have been polite. Bottom line: whatever you choose to do to an old double should be with respect--after all, we're only temporary custodians. Most of them will be around long after our last shot.

I also reload 7/8 oz low pressure for targets. Have done so for ages. However, I'm not about to go shoot wild pheasants with 7/8 oz, no matter how well it breaks long targets. Wild roosters are much harder to break, and even pre-WWII, if you look at the available ammo, you'll find that 1 1/8 oz was the standard game load, even in "short" 12's, and an ounce the standard in 16's. If I'm shooting a whole bunch--as in multiple rounds of skeet, or 100 sporting clays--then I'll stick with the light reloads. But an ounce or 1 1/8 doesn't bother me when I'm hunting, because I'm not shooting that many times. And that's what the guns were built to take anyhow. Said so right on the flats of my 2 1/2" Army & Navy 12's: 1 1/8 oz. For a lot of modern pheasant hunters, that's a light load by today's standards . . . but still kills extremely well.