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Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 116
Sidelock
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Sidelock

Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 116
I've gotten to the point where I am debating regardless of the potential "value" that the RBL MAY represent if I want to own anything that represents this pack of liars.

At what point does one's pride of ownership override the dollar value, handling and manufacturing characteristics of a gun.

Lou has flat out lied to me on more than a couple of occasions regarding the RBL and twice I have inquired on Model 21's they have advertised only to have the Cody records come back clearly different than what CSMC had put in print about the guns.
Lou asked me one time with attitude what I needed the serial numbers for.

Bottom line. If Saddam made a line of fine SXS's that doesn't mean
I would want to own or carry one.

I have seen absolutely no sign of a man of character that the Tony Band wagon says they have dealt with in the past.

Last edited by Brad6260; 12/16/06 11:09 AM.
Joined: Feb 2004
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Sidelock
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Joined: Feb 2004
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Like Yeti, I've supported CSM in the past. I might be classified as one of the chearleaders also. All this was based on their treatment of me and Builder during our May trip to their shop. Tony and Lou were very gracious hosts and spent quite a bit of their likely busy day with us. More than both Builder and I would have guessed. Many of you may recall I posted a series of pics of the mfg processes of the RBL.

At this time I'm seriously considering cancelling my Sept 05 deposit order for a straight stocked, BTFE, exhibition Turkish, SST, assisted openner, coin finished RBL, with a $4k sticker.

There are about 5 reasons/concerns that are weighing on my mind, in no particular order of greater or lessor concern;

1) my friend bought a RBL and it has checkering that looks like the computerized woodburning machine malfunctioned. It's all black and deeply recessed below the finished surface. The lines look like they went haywire is about all I can say. In large areas on the forend, "checkering" is not an appropriate word to describe this 'Hasbro woodburning set rendition' of the art. It is so bad and deeply cut on the forend that I don't honestly beleive it can be recut unless the entire finished surface is lowered and metal reset deeper. I would have preferred it had pressed checkering like a '60s 870 pump which can be recut or nothing. This is the most obscene visual feature I've seen on a gun over $2k.

2) The "engraving" on my friend's gun was nothing like the quality of the prototypes I held in Vegas and New Britain. It looked much shallower and then buffed over, especially on the barrels. I'd prefer no engraving whatsoever to this scratching they're calling "engraving".

3) Two guns I've seen now, that were ordered with Turkish exhibition, looked very much like upper midgrade flamey fiddleback Claro. Neither were anywhere near my expectation of a yellow or grayish base color streaked with black lines, quite a bit of black line figure is my expectation for "exhibition". I can't conclusively 'prove' these guns are not Turkish, but I'm buying the gun and my expectation is balanced against my decision to spend the money. So, proving anything is not necessary for me to make a conclusion.

4) For $4,000, I can find plenty of other guns that are of better overall quality in all respects.

5) Customer handling has been much less than stellar and appears to be some customer's worst nightmare. I'm worried that if I get the gun, I'll not be treated well if I have any problems with my order. Either Tony is unaware of some of the things that are going on or condones them. I don't know which. It does't make any difference when you're on the recieving end of bad treatment.

There. I've said it.

BTW, I have no gripe with their delivery schedule. I find this to still be within what I expected would happen. I have not called on my delivery schedule and didn't ask about delivery when at CSM in May. I figure they should take their time to get these guns right, since I want a gun to keep. Apparently, this they are rushing to get these out and quality is suffering.

So, I've got a tough decision to make. My overwelming reason for ordering this gun was that I wanted a well made modern 20g sxs that was American made.

Joined: May 2006
Posts: 9
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Joined: May 2006
Posts: 9
Chuck let me know what you decide. I'm in the same boat as you, and will probably go with what ever you decide. I don't mind waiting, but I expect a gun that will match the expepectations that CMSC has trumped up so much. Remember, "You get what you pay for does not apply to the RBL." (RBL Video)
-Improved Modified

Joined: Nov 2006
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Joined: Nov 2006
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My PIF was 12/28/05, for straight 14-1/4" stock with splinter, DT, French gray, 3X black or claro (their choice). I have only called once, and was told in October or so to expect December delivery. No contact since then, but I don't expect to see the gun before Spring. If it's not up to snuff from a quality standpoint, I'll have my FFL ship it back to CSMC for a refund. I'll be out shipping costs and the time value of my money, but as gambling goes this seems like a reasonable play. If I haven't received the gun by August (20 months after payment) I will almost certainly cancel and move on.

Joined: Aug 2005
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Joined: Aug 2005
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Chuck,
Re the burnt checkering - your description sounds much worse than similar Italian examples - I've seen laser cut burntish checkering where the valleys are black. I couldn't leave my Rizzini B as-is because of it and pointed up (valleyed down?) the checkering. But the checkering layout was perfect, as expected when cut by computer controlled lasers. No excuse for CSMC.

It takes me a long time to change my mind - I decided on two triggers 2 weeks after ordering but hemmed and hawed for 6 months before committing - so we'll see when and what CSMC delivers.

Joined: Feb 2003
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I hoped that everyone who took the gamble would be well pleased and that the project was both legitimate and feasible. My bet, however, was that even if this wasn't an outright con problems would be serious. I said as much, and nobody agreed. "Tony's a great guy, they make great guns, etc.."

My opinion of CSMC was based on ONE attempt to buy a gun from them where the play was made to 'double close' me. From my viewpoint, there was not even an option to send any cash to fund the RBL project - the business had disqualified themselves with prior questionable practices. Without this prior contact, I would likely have looked seriously at placing an order. What was promised was a GREAT value (if legitimate), and it looks like a large number of enthusiasts were indeed hooked and reeled in.

Following so closely on the heels of the ICD disaster and the Gold Label delay (and subsequent suspension of production), I was surprised to be almost alone in the skeptic camp when the first ad hit the press. Now, with even the diehards jumping ship or thinking about doing so, I gotta wonder what's the next pie-in-the-sky deal to come down the road?

I may not always be right, but PT Barnum is difficult to refute.

Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 288
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Joined: Oct 2004
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Originally Posted By: Shotgunjones
...it looks like a large number of enthusiasts were indeed hooked and reeled in.

I'll admit that I was getting a little impatient, and communication could have (should have) been better; but after putting 20+ boxes thru mine over the last month, I'm glad I was "hooked and reeled in".

Last edited by ShootingStar; 12/16/06 08:49 PM.

Mark

A sailor's creed - "If you can't tie good knots, tie lots of 'em."
Joined: Nov 2003
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Chuck H.
Well stated! I remember your posts about your visit and tour of CSMC. I was very impressed by what your observations were at the time. Correct me if I'm wrong but if I remember correctly one of your concerns at the time was the lack of trained craftsmen actualy working there. I have wondered ever since if this isn't the major problem with production of the RBL.

I have been prepared all along for production delays and expected them. I would not have any problem at all if I was communicated with in an up-front truthful manner, and the guns that are being delivered were in the order that they were paid for.

Unfortunately this is not the case! Now that Chuck has jogged my memory and pointed out some flaws with the delivered guns added to my experiences and frustrations with Galazans, I'm considering cancelling my order.

I truly wanted to see a new American made side by side be a great success story and put my money up to help make it happen. Tony now has had my money "almost $4000.00" for fifteen months and here I sit thinking about getting it back.

What a shame!

Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 158
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Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 158
I have to agree with Shooting Star. Communications with customers could/should have been better, but the final product was, for me, well worth the wait. Complaints from some about "smooth ribs" and "proud wood" (I didn't realize these were automatically faults) aside, the RBL seems to be a pretty good value for a machine made gun. I've had mine a month and had to send it back for repair of an ejector, but even so the work was done correctly and the gun shipped back to me in less than 24 hours complete with apologies from the much-maligned Lou.

Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 142
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The pattern here seems to be if you <ever> get a gun, CSM seems to take care of you.

Absent the delivery of the gun, even though you might have $3-4K worth of cash on the line, the treatment does not seem to be very good. Piss poor communications, promises that aren't kept, order priorities that haven't been kept as promised, delivery dates that aren't maintained, early problems with not getting what was advertised, and now, the most disconcerting of all, Chuck's observations that the quality is sorely lacking.

Is anyone at CSMC reading this thread? If you are, ya'll better listen up. These are your customers who have hard cash on the line talking. Don't think of us as a pain in the ass, we're paying your wages. I hear legitimate gripes here. Your reputation is at stake. Don't blow it now.

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