doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com 1924 Catalog - Kirkwood Bros. Inc. Boston

In reading the latest commercial from Cornell Publications -
http://www.cornellpubs.com/old-guns/item_desc.php?item_id=2624
I see a reproduction 1924 catalog for Kirkwood Bros. The "link" shows the cover and describes the contents of this repro catalog.
Following info on the front cover - Kirkwood Bros. Inc., Est 1874, 23 Elm Street, Boston 8, Mass.
I suspect this would be the same "Kirkwood" that Dr. Bill McPhail would be familiar with.
Usual statement - I have no connection with Cornell Pubs, other than being their occasional customer.
This info offered FWIW - and a very Happy & Healthy New Year to all.

I'm curious if they were an importer and imported components from Europe? I may just have to place an order.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

I suspect Kirkwood (and Tonks, etc.) during the pre-1900 period imported complete high-end single-shot rifles from Great Britain and damascus barreled shotguns from GB and continental Europe for re-sale (to their well-heeled clientele), and also imported actions and/or barreled actions for local stocking, enhancement, upgrading, or finishing. The USofA had a protective tariff at that time, and lower end completed firearms were most likely prohibitively expensive and hard to move. I'm fairly certain that in the case of damascus barreled firearms, all the barrels were imported, due to lack of American manufacature of damascus barrels in commercial quantities. I also believe Kirkwood (et al) commissioned or took in "on trade" locally manufactured American made firearms of suitable quality for their respective company's reputation, as these smaller companies would not have missed any opportunity to make a nickel and increase "cash flow".
IIRC Dr. Bill intimated much of the above during his two "Show & Tell" educational exhibitions 2006&2007 or 2007&2008 I spectated standing on Cletus Hall Road outside of Sanford/Southern SxS Classic. He produced item after item from the bed of his vehicle parked on the side of the road for touchy, feeley, drooley - BREATHTAKING Americana that he should (IMHO) be writing about, if he could find the time in his busy life.

McPhail more than likely will let you take all the dictation you can stand. I think he's much more interested in the next example he can find/acquire.

Your info confirms what I thought and to deepen the question, and along the same lines of William F. Read/William Read & Sons - http://books.google.com/books?id=Hu8WAQA...ter&f=false , if Kirkwood, etal., would have imported tubes and specifically sourced Mauser for tubes which would have connected the dots back to Liege for all the American makers, Fox, Ithaca, L.C. Smith, etc., to have acquired their tubes, possibly non-pattern welded, for their respective doubles, i.e., did Kirkwood offer any Mauser action variants?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Raimey: PLEASE don't take any of my words as confirmation of anything.
I was born in 1945, and wasn't there when these commercial activites went down. My "information" is speculation, "connecting dots", reading in my Double Gun Journals, and listening to the "adults" on this most wonderful BBS. Also, in part of former career, I was instructed in business, manufacturing, retailing and industrial relations. I find the history of firearm manufacturing companies most interesting....and very repetitive regardless of country or continent. I think it is very predictable how companies operated based on economic (and sometimes, national-political) factors affecting them at the time.
I can't answer your question about Kirkwood and Mauser variants - as I simply don't know. Early company catalogs will hold the answer of offered items - ideally confirmed by in hand inspection of suitably marked "goods". The problem with inspecting "goods in hand" is the question - "How do I know this item is original and unaltered?".
More speculation for you - Regarding the business of US companies IMPORTING shotgun tubes/barrels. I suspect that individual American companies did not deal with steel manufacturers. I suspect they dealt with American or off-shore "middleman" companies, or individuals who represented a number of companies, who offered a variety of barrel metal and barrels based on real or imagined quality and PRICE. Father and son Houchins make a fine case in the Spring 2005 issue of Double Gun Journal that for AMERICAN MADE steel LC Smith/Hunter Arms was dealing directly with Crucible Steel Company and then Holcomb Steel company of Syracuse NY for their steel barrels. I have heard it argued that these Syracuse companies provided only the barrel steel, and that the steel was later re-worked into barrels. I don't know. For very basic economic reasons, I suspect other American gun makers did the same as LC Smith/Hunter Arms and bought the least expensive steel available FROM WHEREVER for their general production at that particular moment. The higher grade models offered by some companies sported "expensive" steel names such as Whitworth and Krupp and were priced accordingly.
Further speculation: - Regardless of whether the "middleman" was American or foreign, - whatever his nationality, I'm fairly certain that PRE-1900, much of what they offered to American (and some British) gun makers originated in Liège (regardless of what trademark was on/in the metal. The counterfeiting of goods is not just a recent Chinese phenomenem - especially when the goods were destined for a country without its own proof house). I base this opinion on the fact that PRICE drove (drives) nearly everything - and "money talks".
Offered FWIW - Just my $0.02, and hope I'm not just occupying bandwidth.

Ah, Ian I was hoping for something definite. I believe you are correct and economics was the key. I just don't think it to have been economically feasible to import tubes in the rough from Germany for a semi-price point longarm. The fact of the matter may just be that Germany was importing rough Belgian tubes for their utility or standard examples and a U.S. importer decided to cut out the middle-man.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

To summarize the research of John Houchins, Raimey, PeteM, and others regarding fluid steel barrels used by Hunter Arms:

Sanderson Bros. Steel Co. started their 'Syracuse Works' in 1876, and supplied Nitro and Crown fluid steel barrels to Hunter Arms starting in 1895, Armor in 1898, and Royal in 1901. Sanderson used the brand name "Sanderson Bros. & Co."

1906 12g 00. 'Armour' steel barrels 'P' is likely the Pittsburgh works



'C' possibly Cumberland works, Alleghany County, Maryland



Halcomb Steel Co. opened in 1905, and L.C. was on the Board of Directors. Halcomb supplied London steel for 0 grades and Royal steel for the hammer guns starting in 1907. Crucible Steel Co. bought Sanderson Bros in 1901, and Halcomb in 1911. "Crown" was the brand name of the Crown and Cumberland Steel Co., Allegany County, Maryland.

Crucible possibly obtained barrels from as yet unidentified suppliers like 'TD'



and 'W & R'



At least in the 30s, Crucible purchased tubes from Jean-Baptiste Delcour-Dupont of Nessonvaux



and Laurent Lochet-Habran



Damascus tube makers and suppliers are even more interesting
http://www.picturetrail.com/sfx/album/view/17116222
Barrel marks to date:
EH - ? Ernest Heuse-Lemoine
W & R
RIS & Co.
H.R.F. - Heuse-Riga Fils
O. C. & J.
WR - ? William Read
BD - ? Bauduin Doyen of Nessonvaux

Excellent summary Drew to a question I had in my mind but didn't want to ask as I haven't check to see if your site is up. You must have read my mind.


Either in 1900 or 1901 13 companies including Sanderson Brothers facility of Syracuse NY merged to create The Crucible Steel Company and by 1902 German texts on iron and steel give that it was self sufficient to the tune of 95% of the crucible steel produced in the U.S. of A. It was purported to have 12 50 ton hearths. In 1901 or 1902 it may have absorbed the Saint Clair Steel company or there was some association. It may be that The Crucible Steel Company used or purchased their furnace. The Crucible Steel Company was based in Jersey City but was located on 25 ½ acres on the West bank of the Elizabeth(?) where it had a huge cold rolling mill. In 1906 the Crucible Steel Company was the 1st in the U.S. of A. to use the electric arc furnace which I’m sure was based on the Roechling furnace.

Can everyone smell the blackeye peas, collards and pone of cornbread a-cooking? If not you'd better follow your nose in pursuit of the New Year!!


Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Kirkwood Catalogue 1924 has a detailed 3 page history of Boston
Sporting gunmakers 1874-1924. It is writen by William Kirkwood
son of David who lived thru this period. Brief histories of Tonks, Schaefer, Kirkwood and a few other makers. It is the most concise yet informative writen
history of the subject. After reading it one has to come to his own dicision about "how much" of these guns were made in America.
I will be glad to send a copy of this Catalogue for free to
anyone that will e-mail an address-mcphailcherokee@aol.com
Thanks
Bill

Raimey,

As you know, we both have been pulling the strings on the "importer" issue for some time. In general, I stay a way from any public discussion. Mainly because there are so many huge holes remaining in the research. There is a whole economic that has to be figured in, IE the prevailing tariffs and state of national economics. I am sure that during economic down turns of the US economy, those foreign makers prices started looking better and better. I am not speaking about the final consumer!

If you want a good laugh, go to google books and find the congressional testimony given by American gun makers during tariff hearings. They cry over unfair wages, etc. Yet when delving into their hiring practices and wages paid little more than the those foreign makers they decried.

I will try to summarize a bit. Excuse me if I do not document this as it simply take too many hours a simple post.....

I have found products imported that included rough tubes, semi-finished tubes, sets of tubes and complete guns. Some of those guns were left basic and an a American gunsmith would provide some level of final finishing.

The importers ( the piece which interests me the most ) vary;
** Single individuals who had some connection back to the makers and acted as importer part time.
** Single individuals, again with connections, who for time imported full time.
** Companies that specialized in importing a broad array of merchandise that would occasionally offer barrels, guns, etc.
** The barrel /gun makers who would come to the states to sell, established contacts and did the entire export / import through their own network.
** The end gun maker who had established special relations to a maker or region and had their own network to handle the export / import.

I think one of the questions you are wrestling with revolves around German exports. Where were their markets? How did they operate?

Pete