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Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 53
Sidelock
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Sidelock

Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 53
Quote:
Mr. Krause, lovely to have you in our merry troupe. (…) And to end this line of questioning, are you of any relation to Wolfgang Krause?


Hi Raimey,

thanks for your warm welcome! Seems, my cover is blown away! wink Yes, I have a relation to Wolfgang Krause. Actually, since some decades. He’s my father. So, if you have any questions regarding a gun he’s offering: ask me. My father doesn’t speak English and he’ll forward any request to me anyway for drafting a reply.

Quote:
t was either on page 6 or 7 that those closely following noted the meaning of the crowns but not an exact date of nonuse.


Thanks a lot for showing (again) this wonderful Sauer document provided by “Geno”! Wonderful! Thanks Geno for bringing this to our attention. I have some Sauer invoices in my collection – but not a document like this!

Quote:
Being one of the privileged to actually hold the Sauer records, can you say at any time if the lot will be published, if it may be acquired on a page by page basis, any direction on the Sauer process marks, mechanic's marks and those pesky script "g"s, and others, that are found on the lower rib just forward of the flats?


Pardon me, but I don’t understand? I, personally, don’t have access to the “Sauer records”. Do you mean the “work books” discovered by Jim Cate and me in 2007? I don’t have full copies, but only copies of some pages (we weren’t allowed to copy (scan) the complete “work books” and were allowed only to make three (3) photos and were allowed to order pricy photo copies) – but Peo has ‘em all and complete. Or did I misunderstand it? Do you have the complete Sauer records?

In any case, when Jim and I visited the Suhl archive, we went through literally thousands of pages of Sauer files – but we did not discover any hint to process marks and the “pesky script “g”s, and others”.

Originally Posted By: Geno
Its quite explainable. Sauer had guns and guns in white in stock.


Hi Geno,

Thanks! First of all, you have my full admiration of your observations, facts, photos and documents! Next; yes, they had guns in stock. And, the explanation for the two crowns in the 1903 catalog…. Well, I have to admit: the year date on this catalog isn’t printed, but applied with an ink stamp marking. So, in fact, the “master" of said catalog may have been used for quiet a time – I don’t know.

Regards

Martin

P.S:

Originally Posted By: PeteM


Martin,

So good to see you here my friend. Your input is always an education for me.

Pete


Hi Pete,

Thanks! Nice to be welcomed in such a friendly and warm-hearted way!

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Geno Offline OP
Sidelock
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Sidelock
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I found these photos interesting, though its soviet period allready 1950-53. Sauer mod.47S Barrels marked 1950, paper shows its been range tested in 1951 and sold in 1953. Also barrels have 4 rings Krupp steel (Russian barrel steel 50ap) and Caveman on top reeb.






Geno.
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pwm Offline
Sidelock
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Sidelock

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hello sauerfan, good to see you here (from feuerwerker)

I would like to change the "caveman" word

the idea of ape like neanderthal people living in cave and having allways a big club startet in the dawn of the modern materialism after 1850. this image was stolen like most things from older times. the sauer "caveman" is in fact the Wild man of medival times.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wild_man

Last edited by pwm; 06/30/11 12:22 PM.
Joined: Jun 2011
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Sidelock
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Sidelock

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Posts: 53
Originally Posted By: Geno
I found these photos interesting, though its soviet period allready 1950-53. Sauer mod.47S Barrels marked 1950, paper shows its been range tested in 1951 and sold in 1953. Also barrels have 4 rings Krupp steel (Russian barrel steel 50ap) and Caveman on top reeb.


Interesting photo and paper in deed! Maybe this gun was forged by Werner Grüßung ? He was employed in the forging division of the Fortuna company.



I found and picked up his “Personalkarte” (personnel record card) in a burned building on the Sauer plant in 1998 together with Jim Cate. A room of this building was filled up with hundreds of such cards - most of them ruined by fire or water, but some were in good condition (also some pre-war and war time cards). We picked them up (nobody cared for us) – some weeks later the whole building and its “filling” was history….. but that’s of course another story (if anybody is interested, I could show in an extra thread some photos of the Sauer plant taken in 1998 compared with some photos of 2007).

Originally Posted By: pwm
I would like to change the "caveman" word (…)the Sauer "caveman" is in fact the Wild man of medival times.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wild_man


Hi “feuerwerker”,

Yes, correct, Sauer’s oldest trademark is the “Wilde Mann” or in English, the “Wild man with the club”. But that’s of course no big deal.

Regards

Martin

Joined: Nov 2005
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Sidelock
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Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 4,598
Originally Posted By: sauerfan
... I found and picked up his “Personalkarte” (personnel record card) in a burned building on the Sauer plant in 1998 together with Jim Cate. A room of this building was filled up with hundreds of such cards - most of them ruined by fire or water, but some were in good condition (also some pre-war and war time cards). We picked them up (nobody cared for us) – some weeks later the whole building and its “filling” was history….. but that’s of course another story (if anybody is interested, I could show in an extra thread some photos of the Sauer plant taken in 1998 compared with some photos of 2007)....

Martin,

That is a kind offer. Please do start another thread on the subject. There are many history buffs reading who would enjoy the information and any stories you would share.

Pete

Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 209
pwm Offline
Sidelock
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Sidelock

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Posts: 209
Originally Posted By: sauerfan

Hi “feuerwerker”,

Yes, correct, Sauer’s oldest trademark is the “Wilde Mann” or in English, the “Wild man with the club”. But that’s of course no big deal.

Regards

Martin


but important enough, the caveman is a stupid idiot and the Wild man is a noble man in its own right.
he support the shield on the escutcheon of kings and noble knights and was therefore worthy to become the symbol of the sauer factory.

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Sidelock
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Mr. Krause:
Heavens no I haven't had the privilege of holding the Sauer records. But it appears a scanning scheme would need to be in place before visiting the archives. Yes, I was referring to the Sauer Work Books.


There appears to be Louis Kelber's stamp on the tubes but it is difficult to tell. Also just beside the Sauer stylized "S" on the right tube there appears to be some initials encircled.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

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Sidelock
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I stumbled across this Sauer/Krupp 3 Ring Steel certificate on Gunbroker, http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=243575253 , and it goes a long way to define that Sauer used a data string(123.28 - #123 or 1928) on the lower rib(and I think I've seen it on the individual tubes) for their Krupp Aktiengesellschaft tubesets:





Interesting Belgian proof certificate also.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 53
Sidelock
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Sidelock

Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 53
Hi Raimey,

thank you very much for bringing this to our attention! Most interesting! Firstly, because it shows, Sauer delivered in the white barrels to Belgian gun makers (I didn’t know that), secondly, yes, regarding the date strings this could be a “Rosetta’s stone”, because I also noticed on some pre-1912 barrels some “codes” similar to the Austrian style date codes. Don’t have a photo at hand right now, but I have seen such date strings also.

Regards

Martin

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Sidelock
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Joined: Aug 2007
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Please post any images Martin. I'll try to dig up the ones I've seen. I think that Sauer was sourced by Springer and Fükert also for tubesets. If not Sauer, then tubesets by the Kelber brothers. I can't say that tubesets other than Krupp 3 Ring were chronicled, but many, many Austrian, Bohemian & German sporting arms have Sauer tubesets.



I'd really like to locate the certificate on this Matksa tubeset.

Kind Regards,


Raimey
rse

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