doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Model 21 question

Hi, I need an opinion from a model 21 expert. I may have a chance to buy what I think is a nice 16g skeet model 21. To me it looks great,and all original. Straight grip, checkered butt,26" barrels,frame marked SKEET.
Now the problem. I ran the serial # check with the Cody Museum records office. The gun, S# 108xx was made in 1941. The symbol # is G2187B. A table in Schwing's book shows that # to have a pistol grip,but also states the Symbol numbers weren't used after 1939.
Are quick searches by Cody usually accurate? Could this gun be correct?
Thanks Dave

The work sheet could be wrong, but it is wrong in your favor. No one will turn a gun down because it has a straight grip stock and the Cody letter says pistol grip. Actually, the work sheet may say straight grip once you get your copy. Lucky you.

A copy of the Winchester work order from Cody will be the definitive document. If I read between the lines of your Post correctly, Cody only told you the Model # verbally and not specify whether the gun was straight or pistol grip.
In response to whether or not someone will turn down the gun, if a collector and someone has changed the grip, certainly, if a shooter and the work/wood is substandard, most likely. You need to obtain a copy of the work sheet and if the descrepancy still exists, you would need someone familiar with Win 21 to give you an opinion if original or not. These old Winchesters have been around a long time and if actually used as a Skeet gun, most likely was refinished at some time. Only an experienced collector can give you an opinion if refinished as one of the virtues of the Model 21 is that they are easier to refinish and refinish well.
BTW, I once owned a 1939 16 gauge Skeet with pistol grip that had been totally refinished. It was very nice. You might also check my WebSite for additional help.-Dick

Thanks for the insight, I do have a faxed record form from the Cody museum. It does not specifically state pistol or straight grip. The report gives basic stock demensions and a symbol #.
The symbol #,G2187B,shows up on two charts in Schwings book.Both charts show that symbol # as haveing a pistol grip. The stock does look original to me.I am not a Winchester expert.Did Winchester stamp the serial# anywhere on the stock?
Thanks again Dave

The best way to do it is to take all of the work sheets, symbols, Cody letters and the rest of all the goobly gobbly bullcrap and throw them out the window. You really can not count on any of it to be accurate. I have the worksheets for two of my 21s and they don't tell you anything. Most of the things they did to my guns aren't even on them. The Cody letters don't tell you much more. If the gun wasn't ordered, I have the feeling they would put on whatever was laying around the shop instead of paying any attention to a work order. That's just my opinion of course, but there have been a lot of weird things happen over the years as far as codes and symbols go. The main thing is that if you like the gun and want to pay the price, then buy it. A 16 gauge is pretty rare and a skeet grade is even rarer. And both the buttstock and forearm should be stamped. The buttstock should be stamped under the bottom tang toward the back. But who's to say that if it was lunchtime at the Winchester plant, back sixty years ago and the guy who was supposed to stamp the stock was hungry, he didn't just grab his lunch sack and leave for lunch after passing the stock on down the line and forgetting to stamp it? Good chance that happened. Or maybe someone wanted to put a different buttstock on it and just sanded down the old numbers and putting a different stock on it? It is really a coing toss with these old guns.

Jimmy the part about "if you like the gun and want to pay the price, then buy it" I agree with. The rest of your post sounds like you've got a bunch of guns pieced together. Mine match and are correct as the Cody letter. Mdl 21's are way too expensive to not be correct when paying the big bucks for em, especially when documentation does exist for most. Unlike other brands and models. JW

"Mine match and are correct as the Cody letter. Mdl 21's are way too expensive to not be correct when paying the big bucks for em, especially when documentation does exist for most. Unlike other brands and models. JW"

I certainly agree with the above and for the Model 21's I have vetted, the only two deviations are one gun not having any record(not uncommon) and one gun having a serial # listed as a 28 gauge from a manual letter insertion into the Winchester archives by a then current employee but showing up up as 20 gauge two barrel set 21-6 w/inlay. I purchased the first but not the second.
Do you have pictures of the stock particularly the checkering and borders?-Dick

I don't have gun in hand. I can try to get a few pics next week.
Thanks Dave

In using Schwing's book for Model 42 research, I noticed that certain symbol numbers were reused for guns of different specifications at later dates. The same thing could have happened with Model 21s. A student of Model 21s can look at a gun and make a decision on originality without a Cody letter. I have never sent for a Cody letter before buying a Model 21. I just know, after studying and screwing with these guns since 1955 and owning and buying them since 1965.

"A student of Model 21s can look at a gun and make a decision on originality without a Cody letter. I have never sent for a Cody letter before buying a Model 21. I just know, after studying and screwing with these guns since 1955 and owning and buying them since 1965."

I disagree. I will cite two examples.
First is the above mentioned 20 gauge set offered to me as a 'Grand American'. While not a 'Grand American' it certainly looked for all the world like a 21-6 w/inlay except that the shade of color on the wood was just a little different than I was used to. The price offered was $20K about 6-7 years ago when 'Grand America' sets in 20 were selling for $30+K. As I said the inserted letter in the Winchester records said the serial # was a 28 gauge M21. Purchasing such a gun even at $20K or probably less if I decided to purchase would have been a waste of money if I could not prove original to another buyer. There were many providing upgrades to M21's and some did a good job. These guns are still out there.
Second example was just recently a person was offered a nice M21 ascribed to Nick Kusmit at a reasonable price for the Grade 6 engraving. Winchester records showed the gun left as unengraved. The engraving was very good an certainly looked like Nick's work. Personal contact with Nick showed that the gun was an aftermarket upgrade by Nick. Now that in itself is not a bad thing but without Nick's records there was no way to tell except that he did put his initials on the engraving but anyone could have engraved NK. The gun was purchased.
I certainly agree that many non factory upgrades can be spotted 10 feet away but there are some that are very very good and there are some refinished M21's that are very very good also and for standard grades the $$ bite was/is? not that bad but for engraved examples where the $$ is much higher, confirmation is the best bet.
Most prospective purchasers are not students of M21's and don't possess the neccessary acumen to make a decision based on experience. In that case a Cody letter is certainly justified.-Dick