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George L. #149571 05/29/09 07:49 PM
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This gun is in my opinion yet another example of the trade in spurious guns.A trade that became a threat to legitimate British makers during the mid to late 1800,s. At one time I owned two guns similar to the one seen in this post;one was marked, Moore, London and the second, Nock, Fleet Street,London;both guns were spurious.
W.W. Greener, along with many other leading makers of the era suffered from this illegal trade practice.Greener describes this trade in his book," The Gun and its development," pages 415&416. Sub heading; "The spurious gun and its detection".Greener suffered much from the spurious trade. He states; "all guns marked, Horace Greener, Albert Greener,J.H; W.H;A.H;and other H.Greener guns are pracically fogeries!" In 1895 he was awarded 5,500 pounds stirling damages against one party engaged in the spurious gun trade.
Greener expresses sympathy for Westley Richards descibing the use of the name, "Richards" on spurious guns as being legion!We see many posts on this forum enquiring about guns bearing the name," Richards", almost all are of Belgian origin,and of inferior quality.Most of the guns we see marked, "Richards" were marketed in North America by H&D.Folsom of N.Y.


Roy Hebbes
Roy Hebbes #149581 05/29/09 09:35 PM
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The gun just looks "belgian" to me. However, you say it has London proofs? Hmmmmm. Two things come to mind. One, it is an outright fake, complete with bogus proof. Two, the Manton brand was carried on in a shop in Calcutta, as I recall, long after there was no Manton or gunmaking in the firm. The Manton name had too much Brand Value (BV) to just die gracefully. Soooo, perhaps it is a gun that passed through their shop much as such "name" guns passed through American hardware stores.

George L. #149585 05/29/09 10:39 PM
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Check the proof marks again. Mantons don't say J. Manton. They say Joseph Manton. I have a J. Manton and mine has Belgian proof marks. Mine is a cheap knock off and an 1800's replica of a Chinatown Rolex.

I've also seen W. Richards knock offs of a Westley Richards.

I hope yours is the real deal, but please have the integrity of the gun checked by a competent gunsmith before attempting to fire it.


GOD BLESS AMERICA.
Peter Weber #149590 05/29/09 10:52 PM
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OT but this 10g (not 12 as labeled) sidelever Folsom/W. Richards was on display at the NRA convention and used by Clint Eastwood as William Munny in "Unforgiven."
"Well, sir, you are a cowardly son of a [censored]! You just shot an unarmed man!" "Well, he should have armed himself if he's going to decorate his saloon with my friend."





and John Wayne's "Greener" in "Big Jake" was a Folsom/American Gun Co. (not American Arms, Boston as labeled)



Lots more 'Richards' and 'T Barker' pics here http://www.picturetrail.com/sfx/album/view/20091267

Last edited by revdocdrew; 05/29/09 11:00 PM.
Drew Hause #149608 05/30/09 10:21 AM
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Looking at the quality of this gun I'd say it's a fake Greener.

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=129954923

Drew Hause #149611 05/30/09 10:51 AM
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Came accross another lOndon Manton..

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=129960670

Here's a nice use of Scotts name.

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=129979554

Should be listed as JABC Scott.

Here's nice lOndon Moore...

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=130038723

Our Buddy Ed might cut us a deal on this one fine lOndon Moore and Harris...

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=130302066

Here's your classic lOndon Hemmingway...

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=130105751

Another nice lOndon made Evans

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=130165427


HomelessjOe #149613 05/30/09 11:00 AM
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I have a 1926 repro Manton catalog from Cornell Publications. They had a wide range from muzzleloaders to high grade double rifles and shotguns. Some of their guns were very basic, and clearly labeled Manton but made by someone else. The catalog has cartridge specs, lots of gear and info. Worth getting. Bob

Stallones #149614 05/30/09 11:08 AM
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Several posts here seem to treat the Joseph Manton and John Manton firms interchangeably, which isn't correct.

Originally Posted By: Stallones
The Locks are marked J. Manton and the barrel rib is engraved Fine Damascus Steel and it has London Proof marks on the barrels.
Is this really from the fabled Jos. Manton shop?


Obviously not. Possibly John, but certainly not Joseph. The Joseph Manton firm was long gone by the advent of the breechloader.

Originally Posted By: Stallones
I have one near identical made by Wm Moore that I believe worked for Manton, so maybe he made it while at Manton.


Wrong Manton again. Moore worked for Joseph, not John, and was long, long gone from Manton by the advent of the breechloader.

Originally Posted By: Peter Weber
Check the proof marks again. Mantons don't say J. Manton. They say Joseph Manton.


Again, wrong Manton. It couldn't be Joseph Manton to begin with and, late in it's run, the John Manton firm did use "J. Manton" on lesser quality guns.

Since Stallones says that the proof marks are London, and it does appear to be an early breechloader, the assumptions that the gun is Belgian or fake aren't on solid ground without further data. In this case, the photos are essentially worthless without including the barrel flats and water table.


"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."
HomelessjOe #149623 05/30/09 01:04 PM
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http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=129954923

Nitro you think this is a real Greener ?

bobc #149625 05/30/09 01:08 PM
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Originally Posted By: bobc
Some of their guns were very basic,


No doubt allot of English makers made "basic guns"...but not many big name makers made low quality basic guns.

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