doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion Double Rifles, Paradox Guns & Gauge Rifles @ doublegunshop.com Looking for bore rifle accuracy info

I am looking for anyone with accuracy results of bore rifles at longer ranges; especially with paradox type guns. Longer range can be as close as 100yds. I am working on a 20ga project gun (pt1 to test out slugs) and the accuracy between 50 and 100yd is very different (.5-1" at 50 and 4" at 100). I feel that it is the bullet going subsonic and the effect of the wave hitting the base of the slug.
Did the paradox guns simply keep things below 1100fps?
I would think that round balls should fair somewhat better than conicals, but hard info beats guessing.

Any experience would be appreciated.

Thanks

Tom

paradox guns were designed to shoot both round and conicals as well as decent bird shot patterns. Early guns were BP later nitro and even magnum, your groups are quite good as they usually want period type ammo and loading, round balls are a short range fodder conicals delivering more energy and acurracy down range and work off flip up sites. Excessive looading can deform the base on ceartain bullits causing inaccuracy.

The 8 and 10 paradox guns and bore rifles shoot at velocities well above 1100 fps with good accuracy. The latter nito 12 paradox guns shot at around 1250 and the super magnum at 1500fps.

Thanks for the input. I was hoping to have actual results from shooters. I KNOW that there are people on this board who own or have owned them. I looked in the Greener book and most of the targets are from short to medium range. Greener also states that the rifled gun was fairly accurate to 120yds and the smoothbore to 60. Ipresume that this was for the bores besides 8 which he wrote about the most.
I am currently trying to decide whether to try and push round balls as fast as possible or to go with a 500+ grain slug and keep it moving slowly.
Not trying to make a 20bore into something it isn't though, just better than as it is currently offered.

Thanks

Tom

Tom:
A good source of diagrams shot with Paradox guns is 'The Field' trials held at the time, and widely reported in period literature, not the least of which was 'The Field' sporting newspaper. Holland's Paradox performed very well, and the diagrams were reproduced in their catalogues for decades afterwards. I'm away from my library at the moment, but will report details later if no-one else beats me to it.

Graeme Wright includes a good discussion on Paradox accuracy in the second edition of his book 'Shooting the British Double Rifle', definitely worth buying a copy if you don't already have it. Again, I'll report details later when I have access to the material, if no-one else comes forth.

Tom,
I load for 12 and 10 bore paradox. I generally don't shoot past 100yards. I start checking accuracy at 50yds and if those loads look good at that range, I "proove" the load at 100. 2" at 50, 4" at 100 but better acurracy is possible. I have not shot round ball out of the rifled chock guns. Getting the right bullet, componets and velocity is key in getting these guns to shoot well. Long range paradox shooting requires the LT type capped bullet and I have not been able to duplicate that as of this time. I hope to procure a big bore round ball gun in the near future.

4" at 100 is very respectable, especially for 2 barrels PM. I don't plan on having to shoot longer than 100yds but I do like the ability to do so. I am really pretty disappointed with full bore factory slugs as most of them do an abysmal job of holding onto velocity. I also know that I really can't turn my shotgun into a rifle.
If your gun is shooting into the group that you say it is, then there is something technical that I haven't gotten onto yet.
Marrakai, if you do have some of that info it would be appreciated.
In my case where I don't plan on shooting anything bigger or more dangerous than eastern whitetail, I really don't have any need for a "magnum" slug that really just acts that way out to 75 yds or so. Putting in a proper bullet would solve the problem entirely.
Right now I am just making sure that the twist on the barrel that I have on the test gun is right. 70" twist with a .615 bore and a .625 groove. When I saw the 100 yd accuracy I started to think that it was the load and not the barrel. Those slugs were standard Brenneke 2.75 and Winchester BRI style (just to test accuracy.)
I want to order up two more barrels, but not until I make this one work.

Thanks

Tom

Tom:
Here are the 12-bore Paradox diagrams shot at the 1886 public trials at Hollands' shooting ground at Kensal Green.




Fifty yard diagram, size not specified but all ten shots went into the 3 1/2 inch bull.




Hundred yard diagram, measuring 5 3/4 x 3 3/4 inch. Number 4 was obviously a 'flyer', as a second group was shot to accomodate a late-comer to the trial, whereby all ten shots went into 3 1/2 x 4 3/16 inches.

I would conclude from this that 2 inches at 50 yds and 4 inches at 100 yards is not only perfectly satisfactory, but rather excellent, especially if it can be sustained for ten shots!

Thanks for those diagrams Marrakai. It matches up with PM's results as well. Now I have a benchmark. I will definately post updates after hunting season is over. My range is closed until then.
If I can get 2 barrels to do that I am going to be pretty happy.
Any other thoughts or ideas, please send them along.
Thanks.

Tom

Just found Webley's diagrams for their 12-bore 'ball and shot' gun, as illustrated in the July 1914 Webley & Scott catalogue. The sizes aren't given, so you'll have to guess them for yourself!

100-yard group on left, 50-yard group on right.