doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com What grade Francotte does this look like?

14

Rob,

Is this a VL&D marketed gun? Also, what is the vintage? The reason I ask is that the early VL&D Francottes were marketed under a different series of grade designations. Let me see if I can dig out a catalog photo and post it.

Ken

Rob, Ken, etc.

As you may know I have been digitally recording and indexing the gun sales records of VL&D and A&F for Griffin & Howe. In doing so I have created a chart showing the evolution of the Francotte models as they appear in the records of Von Lengerke & Detmold. There are three ledgers of VL&D records. The first covers 1901 to 1909, the second covers 1910 to 1921, and the third covers 1922 to 1929 when they officially became part of A&F. I noticed that the names of the models changed, in some cases several times. The chart below shows those changes. I traced the changes by following the model designation of guns that were unsold in the year that they arrived and what the were called in subsequent years. The note below "knockabout" indicates that Francotte began to supply the Knockabout model to VL&D in 1904. Prior to that time the VL&D KnockAbout was a sidelock gun made by J.P. Sauer. In later years A&F Knockabouts would also be made by Greifelt and Zoli Rizzini. G&H does not have any VL&D records prior to 1901. You will notice that the number of models available in 1901 - 1909 was substancially reduced by 1929.



Now as to the models that you may own - if you will supply the serial numbers and, if the Francottes were sold through VL&D or A&F, I will happily supply you with the model designation under which they were inventoried. I will also provide the date placed in inventory which approximates the date of manufacture. If you prefer not to post serial numbers openly you may contact me through Griffin & Howe. There is no charge. Information beyond the above can be gotten through the purchase of a Certificate of Inventory & Disposition. Griffin & Howe is a patron of and advertiser on this indespensible website.

Bob, all I know about my VLD 1914 12ga Francotte serial number 33762 is that it is mid-grade, according to the numbers on this site. The engraving is as elaborate as Recoil's but smaller and more intricate in detail; some may call it more refined. Does your research indicate the model of my Francotte, a 26-inch barrel special order?

Thanks for the info Ken & Bob.

Bob I see from your chart that #2's & #3's were both renamed #14's but eventually the #3 version was dropped?

Ken, the engraving in your B&W pic is had to see but it looks as though the pictured gun has a bit finer engraving, perhaps the gun I pictured was #2/14. King says his gun is similar with more refined engraving, could his be an earlier 3/14?

King,

Francotte 33762 is not in the records that we have. Numbers 33757 through 33760 are in the records and all four are shown as Model 'A' guns received in 1901. Since the records that we have begin with 1901, and since guns were rarely received in serial number order, I would imagine that your Francotte was received and sold just before the date our records start from in 1901. Since the four guns almost immediately preceeding your number are Grade 'A' guns it would be reasonable to assume that your Francotte may be of that grade also. BTW, the next higher number after yours is 33828 (also received in 1901) so there is a considerable gap in the range. One of my projects for a later date is to create a model-year-serial number chart to expand upon the Francotte serial number list on this site.

Bob,

You diligence and research are both certainly appreciated.

Pete

Rob,

You very well could be correct about the two models which became the Grade 14 - the small difference between a Grade 2 and a Grade 3 could be a small difference in the amount of engraving and checkering. Another project for the future is to get hold of good close-up photos of guns that represent each different model over the years of production and produce a brochure to aid in identification of Francottes. All I need is more time.