doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Couple of modern damascus questions

If this has already been answered a thousand times before, just steer me to some articles that you might have seen.

I have been wondering about modern damascus for shotgun barrels, since you see an increasing number of newly made knives with damascus blades for their visual appearance.

With today's modern steels, could a newly made damascus barrel be just as strong as a new fluid steel one?

With technolgy today, could the damascus process be automated like standard barrels, assuming of course there was sufficient demand?

I was just thinking it would be nice to have a new modern SxS with damascus barrels that you could shoot all you want, without paying the equivalent price of a new car.

Thanks.

Yes, it would be very, very nice indeed, especially if they are proofed for nitro loads.

Let's take it one step further: Replacement modern nitro damascus barrels for Parkers, Lefevers, Smiths, and Foxes. Who wouldn't want a set? Or two!

I've often wondered why someone hasn't gone to greater lengths to retrofit modern barrels to old guns. They retrofit new parts for classic cars, why not guns? Hmmm...

Mark one reason that they don't make replacment barrels for shotguns is that they have to be hand fit. Car parts are all made to the same size because one size fits all.

Peter Dyson has some E. Heuse-Lemoine damascus tubes
http://www.peterdyson.co.uk:80/acatalog/ORIGINAL_DAMASCUS_BARRELS.html

Scroll down to the bottom here, and you can see some modern damascus barrels
http://docs.google.com/View?docid=dfg2hmx7_1742r4n6vcz

If they can be made as strong as a modern homogenous steel barrel, they would still be a custom or very limited market item. As such, both the specialized process of damascus manufacture and the low production and high hand work to fit them/make them for whoever's double (one guy wants some Parker barrels, another wants some Lefever barrels, etc), would be all a custom type of work. That means you're paying for labor. The price of such a set of barrels could be pretty steamy. I'm guessing just to make wages for a couple guys, it'd cost in the area of $5-7k not including any development amortization of the damascus manufacture.

So, it starts to make the priciest shells to shoot a damascus gun seem cheap (IMO).

Start reloading for one and it levels the field on ammo costs against modern guns.

Frankly, I prefer to mix up my shooting with modern guns and vintage guns. Both offer me something.

Thanks for the replies but I believe that I didn't state my question clearly enough.

Could damascus barrels be made today with enough automated maufacturing technolgy that current gunmakers could offer damascus as an option on their new guns (i.e. Ruger, Beretta, AYA, etc) at near the same pricing as their current standard models?

Or maybe the technolgy just isn't there for less labor intensive damascus manufacturing, or maybe not enough new gun purchasers would purchase the damascus version even if near the same price?

Given enough demand, I'm sure the technology is there or could be developed to do a production damascus gun. But given that the sxs gun itself is a low production or often custom gun, the demand for production numbers of damascus barrels per year will never likely be high enough to warrant any level of mass production. After all, it's art, not function.

My guess is, if hundreds of thousands of modern guns had damascus barrels, the novelty would be gone for most that are currently interested.

Also remember, damascus has more of a negative stigma with the general shooting public than a positive one. It'd be like trying to sell Edsels. Sure the 'enthusiasts' would be standing in line, but it'd be a pretty short line in the scheme of mass production numbers.

Just my take on our little interest.

Chuck,

I agree with your statement about the negative stigma of damascus, that had crossed my mind as well.

Hadn't thought about damascus having a novelty concept as to a signifant reason why damascus is liked. And maybe just by the SxS crowd.

I had thought that perhaps single tube shooters might like a damascus barrel as well, but they probably don't have the exposure to damascus that double people do, so they might not have developed the appreciation of its appearance to the same degree.

Dave

Considering all the steps necessary for the making of a damascus bbl, I would seriously doubt the price being brought down anywhere near a homogenous steel bbl. I know not how many makers adopted it, but according to Ithaca input to a machining magazine (Not!! Sporting ones) their roto-forging method brought the price of manufacture for a shotgun bbl to a new low. By this method a short thick walled tube was placed on a shaped mandrel & literally beat, Cold, down around the mandrel to it's external shape, by hammers rotating around the blank. The hammers hit opposing blows of equal intensity so there was virtually no tendency to deflect the mandrel, which as I recall was made of some type of carbide. "If" a damascus bbl was finished by this method a non-uniformity of pattern would be the result. Even if this were deemed acceptable the number of steps to prepare the damascus blank for forging would add considerable to the cost. All steels are not necessarily conducive to the type of welding necessary for producing the damascus pattern either. Knife makers do not have to concern themselves with producing an item which will hold up to explosie forces, thus do not have the negatism to overcome. I wouldn't hold my breath waiting on a mass produced damascus in modern times. Incidently in the later days of damascus many of the operations were mechanized.

A few years ago Zbrojovka Brno announced they were going to produce guns with damascus barrels. A few proto types were produced, but they never went into full production.

By the end of the 19th century, much of the process had already been mechanized.
http://damascus-barrels.com/files/GB_189...s_and_Tubes.pdf

In 1916 Warner developed a process that used a fluid inner tube with a damascus outer shell.
http://damascus-barrels.com/files/USA_11..._AND_RIFLES.pdf

You have to understand that it was not just the barrel makers. The rolling mills and smelters were working together with the barrel makers to produce these barrels. The smelters used charcoal instead of coke. The rolling mills produced the rods that formed the patterns.

It would not be possible to automate the process and produce the old patterns we are accustomed to seeing. These relied too much on the barrel maker's skill and expertise. They used sight and feel while twisting the rods. However, a reasonable pattern could be, indeed has been produced using modern methods.

Pete