Can I get some help with these? New to me?

The marks on the Sauer & Sohn are typical Post WWII Suhl. Do you wish a description for each mark? Like Material mark, etc......

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Funny I never bought an after ww2 German gun.

From the top, the >>Sole & Pick<< in an oval surmounted by a >>M<< is the material mark noting material inspection. Next the date of >>548<< on the one side & the >>New<< Suhl proof facility mark of >>15 / DR / L<< in an oval but it was quickly realized that outside of Suhl no one knew the meaning of the mark so in 1950 the Suhl proof facility reverted back to the old Suhl standby. Not sure what the >>15 / DR<< or >>L<< represent just yet. Last, the mark of the >>Sole & Pick<< surmounted by >>SP<< denotes final proof via black powder. Again not sure on the meaning of >>SP<<.


Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Raimey,

My educated guess is: SP = Schwarzpulver (black powder)

Cheers,
Jani

Many thanks there Jani & lovely to know @ least one of our merry band is educated.

Too, if memory serves me correctly, there was a lack / shortage of Nitro type powders and black powder only was available?



Serbus,

Raimey
rse

The M over the pick and "sole"( not really a sole, but a trough/sled/barrow for removing mined materials), is the mark for provisional black powder proof for shotgun barrels and rifle barrels for multi barrel guns( used 1945-1950). The 47S could be the model number. Black powder proof might indicate the gun was made for export to Russia. Jani is correct about the meaning of SP and Raimey is correct about Jani.
Mike

Yes, on post WWII Sauers, the modell number is typically on the aft lug.

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Thanks guys, someone else bought that one, supposedly came out of Afghanistan, looked like a good deal. Sauer sidelock with ejectors and bolsters, wood was just plain. Action was loose they say but gun looked pretty good for less than a grand. I don’t usually pay attention to post ww2 guns but this one caught my eye. Always learning. Very interesting to hear they ran low on nitro powder and used bp to proof at that time.

I mined a bit but couldn't find exactly for what I was looking regarding the Suhl mechanics attempting to blowup the Suhl proof facility and powder was rationed to them under Russian occupation.

But I did find this thread:

>>The other guns are not mysterious at all. All the markings are shown in Gargela & Faktor's book "Zeichen auf Handfeuerwaffen" and the history is published by Hans-J�rgen Fritze in his book "Suhl - Heimat der B�chsenmacher". When the US Army took Suhl on April 3, 1945, they immediately closed down all gunmaking and sealed all shops. In the western US, British and French zones no Gunmaking exceopt for allied forces was allowed until 1951. Other in the east: On July 3, 1945 the Soviets came to Suhl. They saw things differently. The soviets wanted to make use of all production capacities of their part of Germany. In Suhl then they found several factories and about 450 independent outworkers, all in all nearly 4000 persons, sitting idle and unemployed. So on August 3 the SMATh (Soviet military administration Thuringia) ordered all the Suhl guntrade, including the Suhl government proofhouse, back to work. All the Suhl gunmakers had to produce shotguns only, no rifles, as fast as they could. All guns were to be shipped to Moscow as war reparations. The Soviets later reexported most of these guns to other countries, $$$ you know. On August 9, 1945 Russian officers accepted the first shipment of shotguns at the Sauer & Sohn company, assembled from existing parts. The Simson/BSW company was completely taken into Soviet ownership as a SAG = soviet owned stock company, starting production of shotguns on August 13, 1945. From October 25,1945 these "factories" were producing shotguns again: Waffenwerk Heinrichs; Sauer & Sohn; C.G.Haenel, Heinrich Krieghoff, Gebr.Merkel, Gebr.Rempt, Greifelt&Co, Immanuel Meffert, Friedrich Wilhelm Heym, Gebr. Heym, Chr. Funk, E.Eckholdt, F.W.Ke�ler, Fritz Kie�&Co., August Sch�ler, Ernst Kerner, Bernhard Merkel, Oskar Merkel&Co., A.W.Wolf, Franz J�ger&Co. The outworkers, stockers, locksmithes, polishers, actioners, hardeners, bluers, gun part makers and so on, again worked for one or several of these factories.
Shotgun production soon ran at high gear. All these guns had to pass the Suhl proofhouse before being shipped to Russia. In the remaining weeks of 1945 1539 guns were proofed, 21739 in 1946, 39961 in 1948. For comparision: In 1913, a very productive year for the Suhl guntrade, only 15643 shotguns passed proof.
As can be seen from your photos, at first, up to the end of 46, the Suhl proofhouse continued to use the 1940 proof stamps. There simply wasn't enough time to design, make and have approved new proofmarks, especially for political considerations. For 1947 new proofmarks were finally introduced, consisting of the "pick and sole" of the Suhl city crest, topped by the letters M,N or SP. The 15/DR/1 in an oval was the then code for the Suhl proofhouse authority. As there was no shotgun ammo production in eastern Germany then, the proofhouse had to make do with Russian-made proof cartridges supplied by the Soviets. As these cartridges were of very variable quality they sometimes missed the German, later CIP standards for nitro proof pressure, so the SP = black powder proofmark only was applied, in spite of the proofloads being smokeless. The Soviets, the only customers, did not care about this nicety.
In 1951 the new-founded GDR gained control over the guntrade and introduced "new" proofmarks, a simplified form of the 1893 -1939 ones. From 1974 on they again used marks very similar to the 1947-1950 ones.<<

https://www.doublegunshop.com/forum...ds=proofhouse&Search=true#Post288666

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Too, a few are diggin' on the >>DR 15 - L<< in an oval and preliminary guesses suggest the >>DR<< might represent >>Deutsches Reich<< and the >>15<< may be the region of Thuringia under GDR nomenclature? Not sure of anything on the L....... But as Axel E. gives above, the mark was the >>code<< for the Suhl proof facility.

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

I believe the following was along the same lines as for which I was searching regarding the Suhl proof facility & the Russian occupiers:


>>I'm not sure on the Italian proof facilities, but I'm highly confident that the German proof facilities were closed in the Summer of 1945 and reopened in September or October of 1945. I've read accounts that the Russian occupants under Major General Ivan Sazonovicha Kolesnichenko, Chief of the Soviet military administration in Thuringia, withheld black powder to prevent sabotage or an uprising. Either before the end of WWII or after October 1945, only black powder was available.
Right off, I can't recall seeing a German sporting weapon proofed in early 1945, but it is possible.<<


https://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=261764

Serbus,

Raimey
rse