I recently joined the forum and wanted to share my drilling and ask a few questions about it's operation.

It's an A.F.W. Timner, 16 x 16 over what is probably 11mm Mauser, but I have not verified that yet. I have done as much digging as I can and know the following:

Clearly it's a Jacob Roehmer's German Patent DRP #72583 [/url]

and here; [url=https://ww...romerwerk-the-becker-revolving-shotgun/]

and a Römerwerk gun, but no lever by the trigger; [/url]

And some threads from thi...b=showflat&Number=543980&page=2]

[/url]

[url=https://www.doublegu...b=showflat&Number=366734&page=4]

This is how the gun works.
Rear trigger fires left barrel as you would expect.
Front fires right barrel.
Selector on tang pushes forward to select rifle barrel. It "sets" the middle sear and moves a small pawl to disconnect the right sear via a sprung lever that is then held in place by the button/lever in the trigger guard. Once the right sear is disconnected, you can not reengage the right sear/shotgun barrel until you have fired the rifle. un-set the middle/rifle sear (which you can do by pushing the tang selector forward and pulling the trigger) AND pressed the button in the trigger guard. It does not reset on it's own in any way until you release the pawl by pressing the button.

Does this sound right?

The actual DRP patent does not show the lever and appears to be self resetting from what I can get from the German. So these guns with the trigger guard button/lever seem to be a modification of the original. I wouldn't worry about it except that there is an unused tapped hole in my right trigger and a notch cut in the spring that moves the pawl that sure look like they are designed to interact, but if they do, there is a part missing. But if firing the rifle barrel is supposed to reset the front trigger automatically, then why does the triggerguard button exist?

Below are pics, I'm going to try hosting on fb, hop it works. I also messed up those hyper links, but they work. lol

[img]https://www.facebook.com/photo?fbid=10217106097124312&set=a.10217106114324742[/img]

Thanks!

August Friedrich Wilhelm Timner was gun maker to the Royal Court with his workshop located in Coblenz, Germany. He was known for very fine work, attaining both aesthetic and mechanical perfection. I am pleased to own a 16 gauge hammer side-by-side Timner. His drillings are undoubtedly worth treasuring, as well.

J.K.B. von Falkenhorst

Can you pleasure us with an image of the lever or send said image?

Ah, I now see them on the Facebook social media platform with the side arrows.


Serbus,

Raimey
rse

D.R.G.M. 16378




D.R.G.M. 16378



So this button which acts as a tab to the so called >>Lever<<?
D.R.G.M. 16378




D.R.G.M. 16378




We really need the full regiment of marks fore & aft of the above image. But it shows that the tube was sourced from the Schilling forge, which performed a couple of tasks. Too a Jäger mechanic was involved and the bore marks date it to pre-1912/1911. Interesting script characters of >>J.H.<< or similar with punctuation on the underside of the left tube.


Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Are the scattergun tubes of the pattern welded variety?


Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Is this tab similar?

>>Jacob R�hmer in Suhl - DRP Nr. 72583>>

>>Deutschland Nr. 72583
GM(D.R.G.M.-Gebrauchmuster???) 16378
Belgien 106297<<

>>Gebrauchsmuster - D.R.G.M. 219051 -Sichernde Umstellvorrichtung am Selbstspanner Dreil�ufer, dessen am Ende der Schlo�stangen angelenkte federnde Sicherheitshafen der Sicherungsschieber mit zwei seitlichen Anf��en auf dem Abzugsblech abwechselnd bet�tigt. Friedrich Wagner in Suhl - 25.1.04 _ W 15883<<

>>Raimey, this is different from the Röhmer Patent! It describes a combined Selector/Safety on the trigger plate�.<<


https://doublegunshop.com/forums/ub...Words=roehmer&Search=true#Post366773


Serbus,

Raimey
rse

If the example of which you are a custodian is similar, then it may date to before the all the >>chicken scratching<< of the additional countries where the novel idea sought protection?


Serbus,

Raimey
rse

"PATENT DEUTSCHLAND 72583 GM 16372, BELGIEN 106297, OESTREICH UNGERN 64473. 44 4071, XXVIII 2765.

Baskyl med etsad och graverad dekor, på ena sidan två hundar med ram av förgyllda voluter, på andra sidan hjortar: bock och hind med ram av förgyllda voluter. På avtryckarbleckets sidor stämplat, till h: "D.R.P.72583", på: "DRGM 16378". På bakändens h. sida och på ovansidan framför hamrarna: Z. Till h. om pipklackshaken kontrollstämplar: tyska örnar och krönt U.

https://www.europeana.eu/fi/item/2064105/Museu_ProvidedCHO_Livrustkammaren_40054

Maybe Peter of Sweden will render aide here???

Gebrauchsmuster Nr. 16378

Sebus,

Raimey
rse

Another variant with the tab/lever on the triggerplate:





https://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=543915&page=2


Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Thank you for posting the pictures ellenbr! Also it was a previous post of yours that led me to the D.R.P. 72583.

Yes the "lever" is exactly like the one you pictured. there is another example pictured here.

Brad

No worries Brad. Does the longarm wear any of the Röhmer & Company trademarks?

I have made a cursory search for Gebrauchsmuster Nr. 16378 but came up blank for the moment.


Serbus,

Raimey
rse

The patent drawing does not appear to show the "lever". I wish I could find a drawing and description of D.R.G.M. 16378.

No, I can't find any Röhmer marks on the gun, but the construction is very similar to pictures of other Röhmer guns.

Have you ever handled a drilling with the button/lever like this ellenbr?

Brad

I it well possible that I have handled one thru the years but I have not operated one for sure.

The probability that a drawing / sketch of Gebrauchsmuster Nr. 16378 exists approaches zero as those are more scarce than hen's teeth. But we might well stumble on the verbiage.


Serbus,

Raimey
rse

>>Schuss und Waffe<< lists many of the Gebrauchsmusters but now there are filters and copyright protections that prevent one from effectively searching. But you can enter the term >>Gebrauchsmuster<< and several do appear in snippet form.


Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Here are a couple of videos of the action:

video

video2

Shifts about like an auto transmission?


Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Yes it does.

I still can't decide if it is missing parts or if the works like it is supposed to and the parts could have been used with a different variation that did reset automatically.

Brad

Were there some extra pieces of metal floating around when you disassembled it? Were the screw slots altered as if it has been opened prior? Unless the original custodian had it altered, I have serious reservations that it was modified after that? Everyone else would be scared to death of the action. I would say that triggers & other components were used from typical production, which may or may not have additional holes, notches.

Have you spoken w/ Larry Schuknecht the custodian of Dietrich Apel's >>German Hunting Guns<< website? If anyone would know he would.

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

No, no parts bouncing around, I am inclined to agree with you. I will try emailing Larry.

Thanks for all your help, it is appreciated!

Brad

Someone give him pfrommers number and email, he was very knowledgeable about German guns I once spoke to him and sent pics over a lindner. I believe Raimey recommended him to me. He will know after watching that video( nice job)
I believe I saw this drilling at Cabelas at one time. Beautiful gun, I have a Roux type drilling but no switch like that one.

Ah I found it courtesy of the great guys here that gave to me.

Thanks for the info, I did pick it up at Cabelas. I low balled them and they took it! it does have a few problems and was overpriced.

Brad

When it’s repaired and you have the dies and brass that asking price will be a steal. Nice job! I think it is a treasure.
Share some pics of the entire gun together, it’s a real looker for sure.
Thanks

There has to be a German gun specialist near you, if you are in St. Louis. Buck is a Lefever guru and Art is the Belgium gun guy they are both down the street from you. I have heard good things about Mid West gun works but have never used them.
Any body have a ferlach trained guy near St Louis?
Art has restored German box locks for me but that transmission will tick him off.
You may call Buck Hamlin and ask what he thinks or who.

Go back to the comments by Kuduae. I believe he mentioned some automatic function, involving the set trigger. The threaded hole is likely for the set trigger adjustment screw. This might be the source of your problem.
Mike

I see what you mean, I don't exactly agree with his interpretation of the patent because the selector lever is clearly there on the tang in the drawing. Part of my problem is not even knowing if I have a problem! lol

The action functions, if you select the rifle barrel on the tang, it fires the rifle and the tang selector resets. But in order to fire the right shotgun barrel again, you have to press the button in the trigger guard. You could keep setting and firing the rifle barrel forever, but until you press that button, you can't fire the right shot barrel.

It just seems to be an odd little routine that I can't figure the reason for. It seems like an auto reset to the shot barrel makes more sense, but then that would negate the need for the button?

I need to talk to someone who has the button in the trigger guard and ask how theirs works. Thanks for the input Der ami.

Brad

fm2545,
Even if that is not the problem, the empty threaded hole is likely for the set trigger adjustment screw. I believe most of these screws have the same thread, you should be able to buy another.
Mike