Greetings. My wife just added this to her collection of doubles. If I'm correct, it's transitional and takes paper cartridges with brass bases rather than needlefire paper cartridges. It's 16 gauge.

If I'm wrong, please correct me.

If I'm correct, is there any source for a proper load to shoot it? I'll be testing it with my bore gauge and other tools beforehand, of course. The bores are very clean.

Also, is there any estimate on manufacture date?

A image of the underside of the tubeset might garner a date range. It is an eccentric breech but I believe Central-Feuer/Fire and just a paper hull cartridge, which may be similar to the below:


>>
Advert showing Collath 1 gauge & 4 gauge in his gauge scheme.


Lancaster's contribution from NE

http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=107196&an=&page=&vc=1




Proofmarks from previous page & note the 1 gauge stamp, which I assume to be a 12 bore? Also looks to have the same tubeset knitter initials.

0 = 10 gauge
1 = 12 gauge
3 = 14 gauge
4 = 16 gauge
5 = 18 gauge
6 = 20 gauge
7 = 24 gauge
8 = 28 gauge<<


https://doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=193971&page=all

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Thank you for the links.

It is most definitely NOT a paper hull 16 gauge. There is no modern chamber. The images I've seen for similar era appear to be a brass base with an old style wrapped paper cartridge, tied at the front with string.

The small recess shown is all there is as far as what we'd consider a chamber.

The top matches what I've seen elsewhere and may be what this takes. A 16 gauge base DOES NOT fit in the recess, but the bores are .662"

Good to know & the term is for >>Randschlußspiegel<< for the >>Randschlußpatrone<<. Great thread on NE below:

http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showflat....0&fpart=all

Do let us know if you roll your own & how you roll them......

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Yes, I'm on that thread now.

I'll eventually need a few more of these.

I'm trying to find any idea of a load and what I can modify as a base. My initial guess would be under 1 oz shot, probably 3/4 for safety, and under 80 grains FFG, should keep me well under 5000 PSI, probably around 4300.

The base is the tough part. I can make a form for the paper wrap.

My initial guess would be 7/8 oz or less. I'll try to dig a bit to see what a load might have been. My I am sure S&B and others peddled them @ one time so data may exist.


Cheers,

Raimey
rse

I neglected to ask, but do the bores have any sort of rifling?

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

>>the 0,71" Schlussspiegel cartridge use probably the same barrels like the 0,74" Randschlussspiegel cartridge with only a different chamber. this caliber was similar to 16ga Lancaster CF shotguns most used in germany before the great war and after
.as you can see the "old model" had only plain discs because the Schlussspiegel cartridge must have some kind of thick paper base the so called "Schlussspiegel" pressed against the plain disc and made the barrels end gas-tight when fired. of course it was not burned and must be remove when loading again or shot out with the next cartridge.<<

From the NE thread.

Also, there was some load data for a solid projectile version??:

>>Cal. d. Zdsn. 0.60''-5/24 Pulv - I dont find an answer for "Zdsn" but the sice of the receiver and 0,60" makes me thinking its for the prussian military cartridge<<


Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Preussische Ordonnanz-Zündnadel-Patrone:

https://books.google.com/books?id=kU9mAAAAcAAJ&pg=PA45&lpg=PA45&dq=Preussische+Ordonnanz-+Z%C3%BCndnadel+Patrone&source=bl&ots=Fhz7S44lKW&sig=ACfU3U36TCCsirBUbHlgpn9gJjGZM1JdSw&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjny---rovqAhWlT98KHSBJDPcQ6AEwAHoECAgQAQ#v=onepage&q=Preussische%20Ordonnanz-%20Z%C3%BCndnadel%20Patrone&f=false

https://books.google.com/books?id=MQZcAAAAcAAJ&pg=PA45&lpg=PA45&dq=Preussische+Ordonnanz-+Z%C3%BCndnadel+Patrone&source=bl&ots=qT2x40GMCj&sig=ACfU3U37RNCXpoJXxePUVGcx_PAnG_eDOg&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjny---rovqAhWlT98KHSBJDPcQ6AEwAXoECAwQAQ#v=onepage&q=Preussische%20Ordonnanz-%20Z%C3%BCndnadel%20Patrone&f=false

https://books.google.com/books?id=-LFYAAAAcAAJ&pg=PA157&lpg=PA157&dq=Preussische+Ordonnanz-+Z%C3%BCndnadel+Patrone&source=bl&ots=BRU70Lyw65&sig=ACfU3U1z1sSvFW6wXKFVSrI6OZDdQPpu2w&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjny---rovqAhWlT98KHSBJDPcQ6AEwAnoECAcQAQ#v=onepage&q=Preussische%20Ordonnanz-%20Z%C3%BCndnadel%20Patrone&f=false

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

But do look @ the entries where on the thread it is noted that the >>upper hooks<< were manufactured >>after 1874/75<<, or around 1876, and this >>new<< modell points towards the stepped cartridge, which is shown in a catalogue by C. Welzbacher in Darmstadt?


Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Oh, leave it to the most capable Larry Schuknecht, adept curator & custodian of Dietrich Apel's website to have the info for review:

http://www.germanhuntingguns.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/E-2-Nr.4-Dreyse-Publisher-2.pdf

Lith Anst v. C. Welzbacher, Darmstadt

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

In the first pictures on the sideswing, the barrels have a pinfire type recess cut into the top of the breech. Then have "covers" attached to the breech that cover up the recess when the gun is closed.

Does the recess actually relate to a pinfire ? Is the breech "cover" actually a cover or does it relate to added strength for the gun breech when closed ?

I believe it was an futile attempt for strength being an effort to shore up the stability. From what I read, it adds little, if any, strength.


Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Yes, Raimey, If I were adding strength , I would surely put the screw closer to the breech face. Not much strength with the screw that far back, but many examples have it that way in the Nitro Express thread you noted. Still don't understand the "pinfire" type notch in some of the barrels.

Yes, that's the original needlefire load. I'm about to confirm (and the base states) that this was converted to firing pin, but still uses the paper cartridge with a brass bass.

Looks like the load data is about the same.

Ah, I missed page 2. Checking links now.

So it appears this is still needlefire. I did a test with modeling clay and it pierces about a half inch.

I was able to disassemble and check wall thickness. The breech is very thin by modern standards. This is a gun for small birds at close range.

Most interesting. What were the difference values or their magnitudes? Did you observe any maker's or process marks?

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

The chamber walls are at most .3 thick. There's no actual defined chamber area to speak of. It's just a tube relieved for the case base.

No. Smooth and thin walled. IIRC my bore gauge showed .035 thinnest.