Hello all and thank you for reading my post. This is my first post here on the doublegunshop forum.

I'd like to ask a couple questions on a Kettner Drillings I have. I've done a bit of research on it and think I know most everything about it, but my confidence level is not 100%.

It is stamped 233, was it manufactured in Feb. of 1933? It appears to me to be correct to that time period. It is stamped "Franz Kettner" on the top of the right barrel, but stamped E.K. on the barrel (under the forearm) Who actually manufactured it? Franz or Eduard or neither? What does the scripted "L" mean (seen below "KAL 16)? What does the stamped "S" mean on the end of "7 X 57"? It also appears there is a "3t" stamped on the rifle barrel, does that mean anything?

Any information is appreciated. Any additional information is great too. Thank you in advance for the help.
Matt

[img:right]http://s1148.photobucket.com/user/psukli...047377015680419[/img]

[img:right]http://s1148.photobucket.com/user/psukli...037324843283699[/img]

[img:right]http://s1148.photobucket.com/user/psukli...097196145951553[/img]

[img:right]http://s1148.photobucket.com/user/psukli...874710559496138[/img]

[img:right]http://s1148.photobucket.com/user/psukli...520096156023508[/img]

[img:right]http://s1148.photobucket.com/user/psukli...497077003723158[/img]

I apologize I can't answer your questions...I'd be asking the same ones!!! There are those who can and no doubt will be along to do so. My post is mostly to say welcome and wow...a very nice drilling in a fine cartridge, congrats!

Matt,
More than likely, the gun was manufactured by someone else and marketed by Franz Kettner. A couple years ago, there was a nice article in "Der Waffenschmied", one of the publications of the German Gun Collectors Assn., about the two Kettner firms.You can obtain a copy from the home office.If you are not a member, I suggest you join. In addition to many other good things, a member gets a 10% discount on reprints.I could not find the 233 you mentioned, but a gun proofed in Suhl in Feb 1933 would indeed have such a mark. It is my opinion that the "S" after the 7x57 is for "spitzer", It was proofed for a 9,9 gram bullet, which would have likely been a spitzer. If it had been proofed for a 11.2 gram bullet, spitzer wouldn't likely apply.Markings like EK,L,and 3t are likely markings placed by different workmen to show they performed work and were entitled to payment, or manufactured the barrel.I don't claim to know who placed most such marks,but others do and one may be along shortly.The cartridge is the rimed version. 7mm cartridges are a little unusual in that the bore diameter as stamped by the proof house matches the nominal designation, some 6.5s also.
Mike

Lovely Kerner-Anson drilling. The pound sign or script L is a mark of the tube maker Kelber. The 3t you mention is actually Sl being more than likely a Belgian tube source. Any marks on frame?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Are the Kettner articles translated?
My 1 year of high school German was over 50 years ago and there's not not left.
I have a combination gun marked Eduard Kettner and would like to know more about the firm.
Thank you

Yes all the info is in English.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Thank you all for the warm welcome and informative replies, all are appreciated. I will have to join the German Gun Assn. and read that article.

Raimey, I was hoping you'd reply... Thank you for informing me that the gun manufacture is Kerner-Anson. I get that Franz marketed it, but why would Eduard have stamped the barrel?

I can find no markings on the frame work, only the serial number. Is there anywhere in particular I should look over again? I have added additional photos to my photobucket library, please feel free to look at them. The top of the shotgun barrels are marked "Franz Kettner" and "Koln - Suhl".

Is there anything else you can tell me about this piece? What type of lock style is it - I did not research this much at all? What kind of real value does this piece hold? I've always wanted a nice drilling and finally have one (eventually will have two... then three... then...) I am a sucker for beautiful - odd guns and I felt this one is just that... I knew I had to have it once I saw it.

Thank you all again for the information, it is greatly appreciated.

psuklinger

I'll look a bit closer but the action type is Kerner-Anson, per the screw at the top & bottom of the back of the frame. Just wild conjecture on my part, but the Kalibre .... & Sl lead me to believe it had origins @ one of the Merkel facilites. Eduard did little stamping if any. All the effort was applied in Suhl, possibly at a Merkel concern thru their sub-contractors.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Let me know if you'd like higher resolution pictures as I can email them to you if you'd like.

Thank you again!!

psuklinger,
The EK on the barrel is not necessarily Eduard Kettner,there are and were many mechanics in the area with those initials.That said,I believe it is the barrel maker instead.
Mike

Like Ford said there are several possibilities for the script EK like Ernst Klett, Emil Klett(somewhat high probability), Erich Kelber(probably higher probability when coupled with the script Kelber L), etc.

Is there an ESHA stamp on any well, left side of tubeset lugs, standing breech????

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Very nice drilling. I have an Eduard Kettner combination gun in 8X57IR X 2 1/2" 16 gauge. It has accounted for numerous deer, turkey and hogs in south Texas.

From everything I see, There is no ESHA stamp anywhere on the frame or barrels. There is an "A" stamped on the rifle barrel that I missed in my posted pictures. The frame is stamped with a crown over a U and the serial number. The front edge of the frame is stamped with an R on the right side and an L on the left. I will upload more pictures and post asap.

What can I use to clean the lock and engraved areas?

You know, I just noticed something after a closer inspection of the images. The tubes have extension into the frame. Quite rare & only a select few used this option.

Also Franz Kettner put his Suhl address on the top of the tube which notes he sourced thru it to the mechanics in Suhl.


Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

ESHA also sourced tubes from the Sl concern.



My guess is that Franz Kettner sourced a gesteck/parts kit or possibly had a gesteck cobbled together from the most frugal of sources, then has the mechanics in Suhl to make it. This way he pads his bottom line.


Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Raimey,
Thank you for the detailed information. I'll have to sit down and try to comprehend it all. I have added more pictures if you care to look. I took a picture of the heart & diamond insert by the wrist, maybe that is something unique to a particular manufacture? It seems to be made out of horn? the same material the trigger guard is made of? I removed the trigger guard hoping to find more info, but no luck. Found it funny that even the cap has the serial# stamped on the back side. Also tried to get a good picture of a stamp near the "EK"... looks like a small omega or C stamped?

Thank you all again,
PSUKlinger

psuklinger,
The insert and triggerguard are made of horn( buffalo) rather than bone.BTW,it was not mentioned that the 16 ga chambers are 65mm (2 1/2-2 9/16")instead of 70mm(2 3/4") which is the current standard.It may have been rechambered and not marked, so checking it would be worthwhile.With the new photos, I now see the 233.While it is not in the usual location, I still believe it is the proof date.The extensions Raimey pointed out as being rare are basically the reverse of "side clips", which were peened in from the reciever and I believe easier than the extensions.It would be interesting to know how the extensions were added.The stock seems to have been refinished with the addition of a recoil pad.Others may criticize this,but in my opinion, there is nothing wrong with it.Now that I see there is a scope included,you have a very fine and useful drilling.Use it often and enjoy it.
Mike

Mike,
Thank you for this information. I am far from an expert (esp in German Drillings) and always learning.

I did not feel that the stock was refinished, but don't know everything to look for. As you pointed out the butt pad is not original. The engravings and bluing don't seem to have much of any handling marks which added to me believing the stock was original. If it is refinished, it is what it is, I'd love to know what you see to feel that so I know more of what to look for in the future.

It may be sacrilegious to admit, but I do not plan to shoot this piece. I am a sucker for pretty things. It came with a Zielvier scope, I feel I really lucked out with this purchase.

I would like to clean up the engraved areas, what type of clean could I use on this?
Thank you again
Matt

Hi
apart from the fact that I am jealous as hell that you have this beautiful piece and not me - looking at your pics I saw a photo of a Colt Woodsman Match Target which brought back memories!
The Woodsman Match Target was the first target pistol I owned back in the old days in Germany, about 1966 or so - wish I still had it.

Re cleaning the engraving: I assume you are referring to the action (metal - nitrite finish if I remember the term correctly)
I only use med. alcohol and Q-Tips on that with good results.
a soft brush (like a toothbrush) helps

regards
Günter
NRA Life 1974

Gunter,
Thank you for the kind words.

That Woodsman Match Target is actually my Dads and it's a beuaty too. A 1949 in the original box in 98+% condition. He sent me that picture when he purchased it which ended up in the same folder as the Drilling pictures in my phone.

I will try cleaning the action with rubbing alcohol and see how it fairs. The last thing I want to do is mar any of it.
Thank you again
Matt

Matt,
looking at your pics again, I would say that not much cleaning on the action is needed, apart from perhaps the area under the horn trigger guard.
Don't forget to lightly oil he surfaces after cleaning with rubbing alcohol (teaching my grandmother to suck eggs! - hehe)
I attach a couple of pics of my 1939 German BBF (only one shotgun barrel on top of a rifle barrel)for comparison.
I have not particularly cleaned the surface of the action as I think the contrast looks good as it is; and it is, after all, an old lady & needs to be shown in all her glory.

Regards
Günter
NRA Life 1974

Gunter,
Nice gun. Is the "monte carlo" stock original? I think I like it better than most pig-back stocks.

With kind regards,
Jani

Hum, that Hog-back looks to be for a Southpaw/left handed shooter.

Ford, that bullet weight is 9 grams total.

That Omega you mention is something like JP or the like. I'd bet the RL on the frame is for the frame filer/action mechanic.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

I assumed the R L to mean Right / Left... Thinking about that now I feel kinda stupid... Right / Left on a German gun??

"Right/Left" in German is "Rechts/Links". Same initials.

Xausa, you really believe the letters are for right & left?


Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Jani,
the stock is original and would have been a 'Monte Carlo' stock - unfortunately someone removed the raised part (or:deutsche Backe) at some stage before I got the gun.
I have made a leather wrap around 'piggy back' comb riser which brings my eye nicely in line with the scope.

Best regards

Günter
NRA Life 1974

Gunter,
You have a real beauty there, awesome. I agree the contrast on your piece looks really nice.

I'd love to hear if anyone has ever seen a "R" & "L" stamped on the frame like that (on any gun). With no other identification marks on the frame... I don't know. However, often times the simplest explination is the right explination...

Raimey, based on your response to Xausa, I'd guess you've never seen anything like this?

I'd concur on the Okham's Razor approach, but I'd hold with initials until there's some use of having Right & Left on the frame. I'd guess it was for a mechanic like say Richard Luck, but I can't say if his speciality was actions or if he was still active in the early 1930s.

Kind Regards,

Raimiey
rse

Psuklinger,
My opinion(only an opinion)that the stock was refinished was based on an overall impression,which included the recoil pad and the somewhat glossy finish.While certainly possible,it rould be unusual to find a 1933 drilling with a glossy stock, showing little wear/damage, unless it was refinished.Keep in mind, this was not a criticism, I believe it is a nice job.A drilling such as this was made to be used, and used frequently. When I lived and hunted in Germany,the Reh(Roe) deer season opened in mid May(1 June in some States).During this time of the year,it got dark very late, which allowed hunting after working a full day(even overtime).I hunted almost every day during this time and very frequently even when it got dark earlier.My experience was closer to a German hunter's(such as would have owned your drilling)than to a typical American hunter's.A drilling such as this one would have been a very fine tool, to be used, rather than an object to be looked at.As such, it would sustain "fair wear and tear"and would show it.Repairing this damage from time to time,adding a recoil pad, mounting a scope,or other changes would be done as necessary w/o any idea that it would hurt the originality.While I know others disagree,in my opinion this is akin to changing the oil or replacing the water pump in your car,and doesn't hurt it.
As far as the L and R stamped on the action,my initial impression was also "left and right", but why? The other parts inside are likely identified as to their intended location, but not with a l or r. Screws, especially "clocked" screws would be marked by lines filed on the unseen end.Typically(although other systems might be used)a screw for the right side would have no mark, one for the left would have one line; in the case of a drilling,a third screw of the same function would have a X.This would only apply to parts that can be installed in more than one location. All that said, I don't know what the L and R mean.
Raimey,
Your computer sees things clearer than mine(or maybe your young eyes), a 9 gram bullet could also be "spitzer".
Mike

Mike,
Thank you for the explination. I, in no way, took your opinion as a criticism. I am hoping to better understand what I have and in the process learn more and more for future endeavors.

The bullet proof is 9gr, it appears like it may read 9.9 due to the "g" appearing to be stamped a little high.

I thank you all for your feedback and information on my piece.
PSUKlinger